this post was submitted on 14 May 2024
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Do any of them know what the word "liberal" actually means?

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Open-minded, permissive, tolerant

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Don't know why you're being downvoted.

Liberal literally means free. As in "If it doesn't harm me, you're allowed to do it". So yes, openminded, permissive, tolerant.

Don't know why a lot of the US-Americans had to twist the meaning of it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Because in politics, liberal means something else entirely. It's an ideology defined by support for capitalism.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

That's absolutely not what it means

In the very closest definition, liberal means "if there isn't a law against it, you're allowed to do it"

liberal more broadly is just as simple: "if it doesn't hurt me, you're free to do it"

I mean, what do you think a "liberal democracy" is? The majority of Europe is made up of liberal democracies while also being social-democratic. France is a liberal democracy despite being heavily unionized and having huge welfare. How does that work?

It works because that's not what liberal means.

Socially-Liberal, for example, is when you are liberal (freedom-loving / diversity-loving) in social aspects. You support gay marriages, you support freedom of religion, you support cultural diversity. Other Examples include religiously-liberal, culturally-liberal, or even politically liberal (you support the right to different political opinions than yours)

What comes closest to what you think it is is economically-liberal. Which essentially says that "as long as it doesn't hurt me, you're free to do what you want economically". But even that isn't what you mean. Is Pollution and accelerating Climate change harming me and therefore not protected under liberalism? yes, says the absolute majority of liberals.

Is lobbying harming me by making my Voice less weighted? Yes, say a lot of us.

So not even economically-liberal is a good term to describe what you mean.

I don't know, what a good term for it is. But it isn't Liberal. So please, for the love of god, stop misusing it. Words have meaning. Invent a new one if you have to, they all began that way anyways.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The problem here is that in the US it means a very specific thing, while in Europe it means another specific thing. I think it gets mentioned every other time when this holywar reappears in comments

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago

Which would be fine except the fucking Europeans keep insisting the American definition is WRONG and refuse to use it, making communication very difficult.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

In Americans politics, and you guys are completely bonkers.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 5 months ago

It's actually specifically not true in American politics.

Liberal in America = left wing, favors greater regulation of markets

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

In European politics.

American liberals do not support free markets. They're advocates of greater regulation amd stronger unions.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

yes, they do. Both* US political parties are neoliberal parties. Regulation of markets is still a free market. Unions do not inherently oppose free markets either.

* must go back at least 10 years for this to be true for Republicans

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Stop prevaricating.

More regulation = less free markets. It's a spectrum, not a light switch. Dems want more restricted markets. Repubs want more free markets.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It sounds to me like you don't know what a market economy is.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago

It’s a spectrum, not a light switch.

Truth so obvious it should be self evident, and yet here we are

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Look rather than dunk on you, I'm going to recommend Mike Duncan's Revolutions podcast, because it gives a fair overview of what the liberal revolutions were about, why socialism grew out of that moment, and how there came to be this irreconciliable beef between liberalism and socialism. The whole thing is great, but 1848 is the real crisis point if all you care about is the schism.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

For a more succinct answer:

It's obviously tongue-in-cheek, but it gets the point across lol

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

A liberal believes capitalism is broken and needs to be fixed.

A socialist believes capitalism is working as intended and needs to be destroyed.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

What's someone who believes capitalism is broken and needs to be destroyed?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Someone who doesn't have conspiracy-brain. The people that say capitalism is working as intended seem to live by the inverse razor of "never attribute to collective stupidity of the implementors what can be attributed to deliberate malice by illuminati-like mechanisms."

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago

Leftism is just secular religion.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago
[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (3 children)

OK, but that's not what the word liberal actually means to most people in my experience. Or perhaps another way of saying it is that a lot of people I see getting angry on Lemmy read the word "liberal" and assume economically liberal, whereas every person I've ever encountered IRL would use it to mean socially liberal.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The very idea that a liberal can't be socialist and a socialist can't be liberal is nonsensical. They are orthogonal concepts.

The division between liberals and socialists is plainly promoted in order to divide people.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Liberalism supports Capitalism, Socialism supports Socialism. They are incompatible.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

That's ridiculous. Liberal socialist societies have been and still are the best to live in.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Social democracy is a form of socialism.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Sure, if you change the definition of Social Democracy and Socialism.

We've had this talk too many times to repeat this same song and dance.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago
[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

In the US political media 'Liberal' is deliberately used to reference the policies of the Democratic Party, which is demonstrably Neoliberal. This confusion is working as intended.

Thanks Rush Limbaugh and all the hellspawn you've enabled.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago

This confusion is working as intended.

And is exploited by tankies/fascists. By making "liberal" an insult from both the right and the left, using different definitions, they solidify in the mind if low information voters that Democrats are bad. Republicans, by being left out of this insulting, sound better by comparison.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago

That's because the socially liberal definition is almost exclusively American, and lemmy has a large number of EXTREMELY Eurocentric users. Almost like a weird mirror world of the typical "everything is assumed to be American until proved otherwise" in most social media.

According to lemmy, there's the American definition, and then there's the correct definition. And they're not being tongue in cheek about it, they're serious.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

It means you support capitalism, hence why "liberalization of the economy" means selling off public utilities, land, housing, and resources.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

That seems like one very specific definition specifically for economically-neo-liberal, only mentioned below all the actual definitions

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

My parents used to called corned beef stew "Pig soup" so my brother and i would eat it. That doesn't mean it was pork in there.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago

300 million Americans call corned beef "pig stew" and it's in the dictionary. Welcome to living languages. Corned beef is now pig stew.