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Brexit makes no sense in a world dominated by Trump. Britain’s place is back in the EU
(www.theguardian.com)
Brexit never made sense.
Nothing has changed.
this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2024
129 points (96.4% liked)
UK Politics
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Honestly, IMO Britain needs to just let go of this 'special relationship' nonsense with the US that we seem to think we have. It only applies when the US wants us to join in one of their wars, or hassle Europe about something which we can't even do properly anymore since we left the EU. Otherwise the US really doesn't give two shits about what we're doing.
We're a European country, not an American state. We should act as such and move closer to being part of Europe, instead of trying to suck up to an isolationist powder-keg on the other side of the world. (Which I'm assuming will be the case once the MAGAs are in charge.)
The world needs to just shun him and his appointees. I wish the world leaders would just completely divest themselves from the US involvement. Just let us stew in it all.
Europe is DEEPLY dependent on the US though. That would be suicide and economic ruin.
Time to ween. It is going to hurt, but we need to grow apart if we are unwilling to act with any maturity and forethought. It’ll hurt the US as well. There need to be consequences.
I couldn’t agree more. But the pace of disconnection is obviously the variable here.
It only applies when the US wants us to join in one of their wars,
bwahahaha....
not when the UK is begging the US to save them in a war, it's when the US wants to JOIN the UK in one of their wars.... pffft... .goddamn..... that is the funniest, dumbest shit I've read in ages.
Not British, but this was a terrible move on Britain side and fell right into what Kremlin wanted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics#Content
(Notice that this book was published in 1997)
Yup, 100%. Labour should finally grow a pair and take the UK back into EU.
Yes, the majority of Brexitiers are from former UKIP and Conservative ranks. But I'm constantly surprised how people don't understand that a sizeable minority of Labour voters pushed Brexit over the line. These are Labour voters that the party still wants to court.
Labour isn't going to grow a pair. Because growing a pair would send them straight out of office after they fought so hard to get back in.
That is the realpolitik. But as the demographic moves on, and anyone able to change their mind looks how it has turned out, we calls to rejoin in some form will be overwhelming.
I agree. I just don't think it will be that way for a good ten years or more.
It’s realpolitik in a country governed by FPTP.
Fix our broken election system and we’ll have center rigir/center-left governments like every other European country.
Oh absolutely. FPTP is a dangerous system to have in an age of vote splitting nutty populism. Labour should be putting country above party and killing FPTP as soon as possible.
Yes, because pandering to racists ended so well in Germany before the ww2. Oh, hold on...
No, I'm sorry, you don't simply dismiss views that you don't hold as being Nazi racist. That's cheap and does nothing to persuade Labour Brexit voters from rethinking their opposition to the EU. A lot of them feel (felt) that their livelihoods were being constantly threatened by a race to the bottom for cheap labour imported by freedom of movement. The unions were pretty vocal about wanting more state intervention and subsidies that, they felt, were not permitted under EU law.
Now what you need to do is tackle these questions head on and convince these Labour Brexit voters that this isn't the case. How does a modern Labour party show that these voters haven't been left behind by EU integration. Calling them Nazis just alienates them and, guess what, causes a crushing defeat to Boris Fucking Johnson.
No, I'm sorry, you don't simply dismiss views that you don't hold as being Nazi racist
I don't. There were in fact 3 groups of people who voted for Brexshit:
- Racists
- Idiots
- Total cunts.
Groups 1&2 overlapped to large extent. Group 3 was relatively small: tax dodging businessmen, Tory politicians etc.
One shouldn't pander to neither. People need to be educated (group 2) or compulsorily reeducated (group 1).
Group 3 should end up in prisons after the law is changed to make public lies with a intention to mislead the public a criminal offence.
There were in fact 3 groups of people who voted for Brexshit:
- Racists
- Idiots
- Total cunts.
As a strategy to reverse Brexit and win round people that voted for it, let me break it to you, calling them racist idiot cunts isn't going to work.
Group 3 should end up in prisons
🫠
I don't give a fuck what racists and idiots think so there is that.
But it sounds like you think anyone that disagrees with you is a racist idiot? And if you're serious about reversing Brexit you're going to have to convince people you disagree with that it is in their best interests. Calling them racist idiots is bad way to do that. Do you see that? Or you still don't care about reversing Brexit?
Can you actually read?
People who supported Brexshit don't need convincing. They need to be educated or re-educated. Until it happens their views should be ignored.
My friend, what you're saying simply doesn't make sense.
People who supported Brexshit don't need convincing.
OK
They need to be educated or re-educated.
As in a forceful Clockwork Orange style re-education? Or... you know.... education via convincing them of a different opinion? What exactly do you think re-education involves?
Until it happens their views should be ignored.
That's not how voting works in this country (UK). The very process of voting means you're asking for people's opinions and views on things and requesting that they choose an option that represents that in a ballot. Are you suggesting that in order to reverse what has already happened we hold another vote and simply not count the ones you disagree with?
I honestly don't know what your plan is apart from calling people names.
No, it is quite simple really. You never asked about a "plan" , so there you go. But irrespectivly of the below, Labour should simply take the UK back into the EU - in line with majority of the informed public.
Now, the above can be done straight away, without any of the below. But ideal scenario would be:
-
Creating a criminal offence for a public person/figure to lie to the public with an intention to mislead them. This will get rid of the group 3 - cunts. There is absolutely no reason why politicians should be held to lower standards than used cars salesmen.
-
Public education for the wide public, promoting anti racism and explaning the benefits of EU membership and how much it costs to be outside. People don't need convincing, they need education. Once they know the facts, the rest will follow.
-
Compulsory re-education for racists. Like speed awarnes courses for people expressing racist views. Fines for reoffenders, increasing with each offence.
-
Proportional representation and constitution forbidding parties supporting racist agenda to field candidates in any election. Some countries have something similar banning neo nazi parties.
-
More direct democracy. More referendums, legally binding but informed ones - taking a simple multiple choice test confirming you know what you voting for would be necessary to be allowed to vote. For your information, vast majority of Brexshit voters brainwashed by racist/£350million propaganda would fail.
No, it is quite simple really.
Which is why it has already been done. Oh wait. No it hasn't. Because your idea of simple is nuts.
Labour should simply take the UK back into the EU - in line with majority of the informed public.
Surely you can see that this wouldn't work on at least two levels. The EU has said repeatedly that it doesn't want the UK back until there a strong majority across the board of the population to avoid the UK turning round in another forty years and leaving again. Do you think forcefully taking the UK back proves that to the EU? And on a more basic level, Labour would destroy itself if it ignored it's voters a lot of which voted to leave. What you're calling for is electoral suicide. Even if they did try and do this you think it would be simple? The only simple thing that would happen is Labour would be out of office or dismantled for a hundred years.
Creating a criminal offence for a public person/figure to lie to the public with an intention to mislead them.
They already have this in the ministerial code and it doesn't get enforced. The cop out is always, "I genuinely didn't believe I was lying at the time" creating a high bar to prove otherwise. Have you seen a libel or slander case in the UK recently? Do you think they're quick or cheap to run? This would be "simple" you say? 😂
Public education for the wide public, promoting anti racism and explaning the benefits of EU membership and how much it costs to be outside. People don't need convincing, they need education. Once they know the facts, the rest will follow
Compulsory re-education for racists. Like speed awarnes courses for people expressing racist views. Fines for reoffenders, increasing with each offence.
This I can agree with. But I still don't imagine it would be simple. We need this regardless and it it will take a generation or two to change attitudes.
Proportional representation and constitution forbidding parties supporting racist agenda to field candidates in any election. Some countries have something similar banning neo nazi parties.
PR is a good first step and something I think the Labour government should support. But they like the Tories won't as it will prevent them from the soaring majorities they're both used to. And whilst you can ban outright racist parties such as a Nazi party how do you police a party campaigning to reduce migration? That in itself isn't racist, but a lot of people might lean towards that party. If you keep banning parties eventually you become a despot. Again, really not as simple as you make out. Otherwise UKIP, Reform, et al would have all been banned instantly. But they haven't.
More direct democracy. More referendums, legally binding but informed ones - taking a simple multiple choice test confirming you know what you voting for would be necessary to be allowed to vote. For your information, vast majority of Brexshit voters brainwashed by racist/£350million propaganda would fail.
The simplest way to create civil unrest. Why would you pay your taxes if you're going to ban people from voting? Absolute insanity. You've broken the civil contract between people and Parliament. People pay taxes and instruct their MPs to vote on issues on their behalf knowing that if they are dissatisfied they can replace them in five years. But your answer is to now remove votes from people? Jaysus I imagine women's groups and minorities would be up in arms about that.
You know what? I can't be arsed to reply to you, so just a few points as you clearly have no idea what you are talking about which firmly places you in one of the groups I mentioned.
Public lies - . There is already number of offences where intent must be proven and it is up to the court to decide.
Banning racist parties - again, this is up to the court to decide where legitimate criticism ends and blatant racism starts.
Referendums - there is no link between paying taxes and right to vote. People on benefits have right to vote and taxes paying migrants do not so again you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. There is absolutely no reason for the ignorants to be able to decide, starting with you.
it is up to the court to decide.
This isn't a simple thing as you are implying though. That's the point I'm making. Your "solutions" are more like wishes in an ideal world. They aren't workable and would add massively to the overstretched resources.
there is no link between paying taxes and right to vote. People on benefits have right to vote and taxes paying migrants do not
These are the exceptions. What do you think I mean when I say the social contract? Why would you live and pay into a society.... and by pay that could be taxes if you can afford them or in other ways if not.... if you get nothing out of it? The government is just seizing your money for what? And you suggest to just band or ostracise people at a whim? Again, unworkable.
Imagine being told that you're not allowed to vote because you don't think the same way as someone else. Madness. Absolute madness.
You are bloody ignorant.
I'm not sure you understand correctly.
The options outlined above are pander to racists or have racists in charge.
Although I can concur, either way we're probably fucked.
Brexit makes no sense in any world.
Except the one invented in Farage etcs brain farts.
Fucktards on both sides of the Atlantic giving Putin exactly what he wants.
Conservative Fucktards on both sides of the Atlantic giving Putin exactly what he wants.
Labor didn't want this.
It makes the assumption that we could do that.
There's no certainty that another referendum would be in favour of rejoining. Most people have bigger problems than the green line not going up quite as fast or Tarquin not being able to do erasmus. If anything so little changing after brexit for the vast majority of people has just cemented the idea that we don't need the EU. The prospect of getting drafted into WWIII is hardly going to help.
Taking us back in without another referendum is theoretically a possibility. It could provoke a backlash at the next election though, so even if they pushed it through before then we could just end up with Farage as our next PM and leaving again. The EU would hopefully realise this and not let it happen, since it would be a massive pain for everyone.
Even if you had another referendum, and it was in favour of rejoining, if it was just a slim margin again, are we going to want to rejoin, and will the EU want us rejoining, given the very likely prospect of calls for a third referendum?
Without the EU giving us some kind of deal more favourable than we had before (which is unlikely), or some kind of structural reform of the EU, it's doubtful.
more favourable than we had before
UK literally got the best deal in the history of countries joining the EU. And they are supposed to get even more? I don't see that happening.
....
Cute that you think that Brexit will stop your involvement in WWIII.
So serious question. Would the EU even allow Britain back in at this point? I imagine the terms would be much less favourable if they did. I imagine the pound wouldn't be allowed anymore for a start. You want back in? Adopt the euro.
I think you could make the argument that Britain rejoining makes the EU look good - if the UK leaves and does better, it might give other countries the idea that they'll be better off leaving too. But if the UK changes its mind and comes back after not even 10 years of being out, it might send the message to others that you're better off staying the course.
Especially if we're willing to come back for a worse deal than we had before we left, which I'd assume would be the case. We pissed away an amazing position within the EU, I'd be very surprised if they were willing to let us just plop back into our old role.
Would the EU even allow Britain back in at this point?
Can only guess. But If they even considered it. I expect they would want a clear majority vote. 66% or above would be my guess.
I imagine the terms would be much less favourable if they did
Likely the same as any new nation joining.
I imagine the pound wouldn’t be allowed anymore for a start. You want back in? Adopt the euro.
Like many new nations joining. That would be less simple. As Joining the Euro has economic requirements. I can actually see the UK promising to adopt the Euro one day. Then never really working to do anything beyond accept it in the UK along with GPB. Because joining the Euro is always an eventual requirement for new nations, rather than an immediate one. If Europeans can spend euros in the UK. I can't actually see the EU forcing the UK to join any time soon.
That is of course ignoring point one is unlikely to happen.
Yeah the Euro thing is a bit of a Catch-22 I think - if a Labour government agrees to adopt the Euro, the Tories and the press will absolutely tear them to pieces, and we'll probably end up with a Tory government again, bleating on about how they "Saved our pound" or whatever.
Adopt the Euro, dispense with the monarchy, enrol in a European Defence Force.
Assuming a true vote. Rather than one filled with false claims. (yeah, that ain't going to happen)
Dispense with the monarchy is likely the only one unlikely to win.
While, numbers are way higher than in the past. Distrust of UK democracy still means well under 50% are comfortable with any proposed replacement. So much like brexit. Without multiple incompatible offers to replace. A vote to end our current system will fail.
And honestly, as a nation, those most opposed to the system are not those most likely to fall for the false claims of a new one.
Basically post UK history with republics. (1690s) And recent distrust in politicians. You need to agree and sell the replacement before removing the current system.
Oh I doubt it'll ever happen in my lifetime, at 67 I've probably only got 20 or 30 years left anyway. But maybe my daughter will be part of a united European state.
I wish her the best.
Honestly, back in the 80-90s I had the same wish. And in the late 90s honestly thought we were heading that way.
Son is now 34. Honestly question if he will live long enough.
Sure honey, it doesn't make sense... now. Only recently.
Pick whatever excuses you need, to do the right thing.
Yeah, please come back!
Brexit did not make sense either before the world was dominated by Trump.
But if the UK wants to come back in the EU there are welcome to do so.
Nothing makes sense anymore.
Is it just me, or does that photo look like both Trump and Boris at the same time??