Cost of Doing Business Rule : 196

[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 month ago (3 children)

To the accelerationists the lives of the Palestinian people are the cost of doing business. Dirtying their hands by voting Democrat would inconvenience them by violating their moral compass. Even though Harris pledged to do everything in her power to end the war in Gaza. The magnitude and scope of an indefinite genocide were immaterial to accelerationists. By contributing to Harris' loss they achieved a moral victory over the progressives and socialists who are also anti-racist, but were willing to leverage power for the benefit of the Palestinian people.

Read this comment section and what the users arguing against democracy had to say. Then watch the video and see how the video is talking about their arguments and their refusal to leverage power for the benefit of others. Their arguments have to twist the video's words and hope you don't watch it.

In a democracy, voting is how we leverage power in elections. When we show up, we win. The accelerationists weren't willing to show up for Palestinians, who they professed to care about. They aren't going to show up for Palestinians, trans people, or anyone for elections in 2026 and 2028. A user argues, in this comment section, against utilizing elections.

Assuming we continue to have elections, please reject accelerationism. Things do not get better by making them worse. Things only get better by learning from our mistakes and using that knowledge to make things better.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Kamala “I Won't Change Biden's Israel Policy” Harris pledged to do everything in her power did she?

Is that the same power Biden has, such as overriding congress to ship weapons to Israel? Or maybe it was rejecting Palestine voices at the DNC events?

Harris and the Dems were never going to reverse course on Palestine. They’d already taken their millions in J Street and AIPAC bribes, and their action and lack of advocacy has been clear since day 1.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Harris promised to do everything in her power to end the war in Gaza.

“This year has been difficult, given the scale of death and destruction in Gaza and given the civilian casualties and displacement in Lebanon, it is devastating. And as president, I will do everything in my power to end the war in Gaza, to bring home the hostages, end the suffering in Gaza, ensure Israel is secure, and ensure the Palestinian people can realise their right to dignity, freedom, security and self-determination,” Harris said to applause during a rally in East Lansing city of Michigan, home to 200,000 Arab Americans.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/4/harris-says-will-end-gaza-war-in-final-election-appeal-to-arab-americans

Harris was running for president, not Biden. All the information we had suggested that Harris' presidency would be vastly different than Trump's second term.

Yet Trump has repeatedly urged to Israel “finish the job” and destroy Hamas — but hasn’t said how.

https://apnews.com/article/trump-mideast-netanyahu-israel-gaza-iran-wars-2e37305522d19bdc34e956586cce99bd

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Harris also promised to do nothing differently than Biden.

she would not alter the Biden administration's policies on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the Gaza war, stressing the need to secure a cease-fire/hostage release deal.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-30/ty-article/harris-tells-cnn-no-change-in-bidens-israel-policy-we-have-to-get-cease-fire-deal-done/00000191-a0fd-d172-abd9-eaff68f80001

Harris is so hopeless on the Gaza situation that she won’t even call it a genocide, but she will stress Israel’s security and rights to “defend itself”.

You’re only kidding yourself if you think she would have meaningfully been different to the people in Gaza from Trump, both are carte blanche levels of support of Israel.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It wasn't useful for Harris to call it a genocide, because it would have hurt her chances of getting elected. Even Bernie refers to it as a war, probably so he doesn't get censored by the Senate.

Harris called for a ceasefire multiple times. Here's a comment that said it best.

https://lemmy.world/comment/13069715

She’s taken a stance, multiple times. The left doesn’t want to hear it.

March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas

July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315

September - https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/harris-trump-presidential-debate-election-2024/card/harris-calls-for-ceasefire-in-gaza-while-trump-claims-she-hates-israel--isokhfqmy6EgRGrUOSuK

Despite your argument's attempt to conflate the two, it was evident from examining the evidence that Harris wanted a ceasefire and would be better than Trump on this issue. To end the genocide we need a president who wants it to end before all the Palestinians are dead.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Saying you want a ceasefire while you keep arming and funding the side causing the violence is not better, it's the same thing but with a layer of PR on top that gullible fools believe.

To end the genocide, you need a president that doesn't support Israel.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Biden wasn't running for president. Harris was and as VP she doesn't have the power to change the US' relationship with anyone.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Harris was running on doing exactly the same as Biden on Palestine.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Unlike Biden, Harris was not a life long Zionist.

When Joe Biden met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet during his visit to Israel, the U.S. president assured them: "I don't believe you have to be a Jew to be a Zionist, and I am a Zionist."

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/

She even chose Tim Walz over Josh Shapiro, another Zionist.

For years, he has been a steadfast supporter of the Jewish state.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/josh-shapiros-vp-bid-ignites-debate-israel-antisemitism-rcna164105

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Even though Harris pledged to do everything in her power to end the war in Gaza

Source?

I'm asking sincerely.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Harris promised to do everything in her power to end the war in Gaza.

“This year has been difficult, given the scale of death and destruction in Gaza and given the civilian casualties and displacement in Lebanon, it is devastating. And as president, I will do everything in my power to end the war in Gaza, to bring home the hostages, end the suffering in Gaza, ensure Israel is secure, and ensure the Palestinian people can realise their right to dignity, freedom, security and self-determination,” Harris said to applause during a rally in East Lansing city of Michigan, home to 200,000 Arab Americans.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/4/harris-says-will-end-gaza-war-in-final-election-appeal-to-arab-americans

Trump wants Israel to finish the job.

Yet Trump has repeatedly urged to Israel “finish the job” and destroy Hamas — but hasn’t said how.

https://apnews.com/article/trump-mideast-netanyahu-israel-gaza-iran-wars-2e37305522d19bdc34e956586cce99bd

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

sigh We shouldn't have to constantly bring up every possible angle, every possible nuance, just to avoid accusations like this. The accelerationists are for sure another example of this. I wrote a more detailed explanation in another comment.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Accelerationism is a self-defeating strategy that harms us all. Part of the bare minimum of doing the work between elections is calling out accelerationism's false promises. It takes little effort, but it's important to highlight the uselessness of this ideology. If we do not learn from all the failures of this election we will be doomed to repeat them in the future.

People are arguing against participating in elections to help minorities in this comment section. The video is in no small part about people refusing to leverage power to help minorities. This is not an issue of nuance. The arguments the video is referring to and the arguments in this comment section are a one to one match.

The meme misrepresents the video, which in facts calls out people for their inaction the same way the commenter in the meme is doing. It is in fact this meme that is attempting, unsuccessfully for another moral victory at the expense of the Palestinians. This meme does nothing to help the Palestinians, it is just seeking moral victory over those who would leverage power for the Palestinians.

The commenter's argument and the video's argument are the same argument. So the meme is arguing against the video's argument. edit: typos

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I'm like 50% sure you're trolling me here. Was there something specific in the comment I referenced that didn't make sense? Or did you not read it?

There's no moral victory in what I posted. I'm trying to call attention to these useless attacks that disregard Palestinians.

And I only see one person mentioning not to participate in elections, unless somehow people I've blocked are allowed to comment or something?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I read your comments and watched the video. This isn't my first time watching this video.

I’m trying to call attention to these useless attacks that disregard Palestinians.

The attacks, your argument refers to, are against accelerationism. Not everyone is going to use that term, but it's clear based on the statement that is what they are referring to. Gaza was the single issue accelerationists focused on. The accelerationists and this meme are disregarding the Palestinians.

The commenter's message and the video's message are the same. We need to leverage power to help minorities. Arguing against that message is more accelerationism.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

He'll yea let's call people unwilling to vote for someone who won't stop the genocide accelerationists! Bad faith holier-than-thou bullshit like this is why so many people hate liberals, and will get absolutely zero support for democrats while turning a lot of people away. I'm saying as a Harris voter, it's an asshole move to call Muslims and immigrants who refuse to vote for a president who will almost certainly do nothing but bad to them be their people "accelerationists" just bc someone else will do worse

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

He’ll yea let’s call people unwilling to vote for someone who won’t stop the genocide accelerationists!

People are claiming to be accelerationists, arguing that accelerationism is the answer to fascism, making pro-accelerationism memes. The memes have been in the lemmy.world Political Memes community but the rhetoric can be found in political discussions all over lemmy. I would say it's commonplace at this point.

Their one issue was pretending to care about the Palestinians. After recent discussions I've had today and yesterday, it seems more obvious than ever that accelerationists don't care about anything but being the most morally pure person in the room.

Have you seriously not seen anything related to that? Having the self-evident political discourse on lemmy pointed out to you is really the straw that broke your back on hating the libs?

it’s an asshole move to call Muslims and immigrants

Are you kidding? It's mostly white people as far as I can tell. The Palestinians and Muslims I've heard from urged people to vote for Harris. Accelerationism seems to require a privileged mindset so a person can turn a blind eye to the actual plight of minorities.

edit: It's Political Memes community not politics community for the memes.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Show me these people you're talking who call themselves accelerationists. Because it's starting to sound suspiciously like that's just a label you're applying to people whose praxis you disagree with

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Watching everything burn isn't praxis. Their strategy is to let fascists win, so they aren't even anti-fascist. It's self-defeating because it helps no one and gets us further from progressive and socialist goals.

I argue with a lot of people arguing for accelerationism so there is my comment and post history. Alternatively you could go through the Political Memes, politics, News, and World News communities. Political Memes would probably be the easiest to find relevant posts and comments.

The search bar is a helpful tool for this. Individual communities can be selected to be searched. Searching on accelerationism is a good place to start. Once you find some users arguing against or for this rhetoric you can review their comment and post history.

I have been participating in and following along with the political discourse on lemmy. Lots of other people have to. I'm not the only one who has noticed the prevalence of accelerationism rhetoric or the only person arguing against accelertionism.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

You're gonna have to do better than "look through my comments and a bunch of posts on different communities, I argued with a bunch of accelerationists there". You've got a shit ton of comments, many are very long, and I've got better shit to do with my time than clicking all your comments and all the comments on all the posts on all those communities and ctrl-f'ing for the word accelerationist. Please link or quote a comment where someone is literally arguing in favor of accelerationism, or if you can't, just stop baselessly calling people accelerationists

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 month ago

I'm not reposting all of lemmy for you here. They are in this comment section even.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

I have looked at a few dozen of your comments, and absolutely none have advocated for making things go to shit in order to make society collapse, or anything remotely close to that, just people arguing against voting democrat, or even just people criticizing democrats. Why are you lying about the accelerationists that are supposedly everywhere?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

https://www.project2025.org/

https://www.25and.me/?topics

The US just elected a fascist dictator. Millions of people are now at risk of being deported and millions could be killed by fascist policies. Your argument is unsuccessfully minimizing how badly this election has fucked us. The people arguing against voting Democrat are the accelerationists arguing for a strategy to make society collapse.

Why are you lying about the accelerationists that are supposedly everywhere?

I recommend paying attention. The results of this election could impact us for decades to come and may lead us to some of the worst outcomes of climate change. Accelerationists have fundamentally misunderstood the lessons of history and have demonstrated they do not care about anyone but themselves. Things get better when we learn from our mistakes not when we repeat them. Watching things burn is useless. We have to do the work to make things better. edit: typo

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You're very blatantly just calling people who voted in ways you disagree with accelerationists. You're intentionally misrepresenting them to portray them as evil because if they don't Vote Blue No Matter Who they must be evil and want the world to end. Please get your head out of your ass <3

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Your argument is what is known as a straw man. No where in my argument do I claim accelerationists are evil. My argument is that accelerationism as a strategy is useless.

Your argument isn't based on the discussions on Lemmy or anything in the argument you are responding to. If you aren't going to engage with either of those then there is little point of continuing this discussion.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Every conservative accusation is a confession. This applies to liberals too apparently. How in the heck are you gonna say I'm strawmanning you while literally calling people accelerationists when they don't claim to be xD fuck off l*beral, from the river to the sea 🇵🇸

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

From the river to the sea. I'm a social democrat.

If you actually cared, accelerationism would bother you because they left the Palestinians out to dry. Trump being president may have killed Palestinian statehood. Israel is talking about annexing the West Bank. These election results have undoubtedly extended the genocide in Gaza for at least the next four years, assuming anyone lives that long. Israel wants to build a greater Israel out of Lebanon too and Trump is going to let them. Accelerationism is useless.

🇵🇸

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Keep referring to Muslims and immigrants who want a president that won't kill them as accelerationists, surely this time shaming people will get them on your side

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

The accelerationists are predominately privileged white people who see Muslims and immigrants as the cost of doing business. Accelerationists seem to think they can shame everyone else into accepting genocide. No matter how much your argument or theirs tries to twist the truth, refuting these arguments will be trivial.

This election we had a choice between a Democrat who wanted to end the war and a Republican who wanted Israel to finish the job. Choosing the Democrat was the most useful choice to help the Palestinians. The people arguing for things to get worse in the hope they get better by not voting Democrat are making the accelerationist argument. Those positions are in fact one in the same. Your argument is pretending they are different, but is unable to articulate any difference whatsoever.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

It can also be reversed - there were some popular far-left YouTubers who were advocating for not voting or voting third party as a protest against Gaza genocide, yet things that mattered domestically like LGBT, women's rights weren't even considered or mentioned there. The cost of doing business, baby.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

Indeed - in retrospect, I probably should have illustrated both.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I don't get it.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Its saying that the people who get angry at pro-palestinians for not voting how they wanted them to win a moral victory over that person but at the detriment of the palestinians we should be advocating for.

The linked video is solid and I recommend watching it. Essentially it's about how and why white liberals often forget the real material danger of the people they feel they are advocating for.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Basically, yeah. The example used in the video was about immigrant students potentially being doxxed by a conservative planning to give a speech at a university, with the "white moderates" being okay with this (not taking the "bluff") as a part of their strategy. The point being that "weaponizing or disregarding students of color is still racism."

The same kind of applies here. The commenter was using palestinians as a tool to attack the people they disagree with, completely disregarding the palestinians in the process.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Wait, what?

OK, help me understand your reasoning here.

People refuse to vote for Harris, because it would betray their principals to support the Dems when they refuse to call what's happening in Gaza a genocide (which it is).

They do this, despite knowing that this will help Trump win, who will actively encourage Israel's genocide, as opposed to the current Dem position of trying to (fairly ineffectively) somewhat temper it.

This is very much an example of what Ian is talking about in his video. (Typically) White progressive activists choosing their own principles over what will actually be most beneficial for the people they claim to be advocating for. The Dems are ultimately the better option for Palestinians, small though the difference may be.

But you seem to be arguing that actually the real villain here is some random commenter calling those people out for doing exactly that. And that said commentor is actually the one guilty of choosing principles over effective advocacy.

Do I have that right?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

No, I'm not saying it's just one or the other. What you describe is another example of this.

What motivated me to make this though, is the sheer quantity of these types of comments, combined with the knowledge that many of those who were in that situation of not wanting to vote for Harris felt that way because they had family that were killed by the administration sending over weapons. I don't know about you, but if I had family that was gone as a result of this administration's actions, I'm not sure I'd be able to bring myself to vote for them. And the type of comment I used in the image strikes me as particularly insulting given that context. The existence of Palestinians is ignored while they are simultaneously being used as a tool in the discourse. And no good can possibly come from a comment like this, aside from the commenter temporarily feeling better about themselves.

And to reiterate, yes, white people disregarding the very real genocidal consequences of not voting is also an example. But a lot of that was blown out of proportion too. The lesser of two evils logic holds in swing states, sure. But in states guaranteed to vote one way or the other, a protest vote largely doesn't matter.

Hope that helped to clarify.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Yes because we should have done EVERYTHING WE COULD TO PREVENT GENOCIDE AND WE DID NOT. We pretended it wasn't an issue that could be fought and let them be slaughtered. This country saw a genocide and said ah well, never the less and voted for the genocider. Voting the democrats into power never would have protected anyone. We could have prevented this genocide but too many people weren't willing to be uncomfortable for it.

So yes, they are saying that the people punching left over this issue are harming minorities and using them as a weapon to feel morally supperior. Because they are. The people who didn't vote or voted third party aren't because voting never would have changed a thing for these people (or any other minority longterm). The US will kill them regardless of which person was elected.

You need to get more radical, the right certainly is and you will be left behind. Find left leaning or leftist support networks you can trust and get a gun. This shit has been inevitable for a long time now and most of us have been too propagandized to see it. You cannot fight fascism through the ballot box, they will just fucking shoot you. The west has been far too comfortable for far too long and we have forgotten what our ruling class is willing to do to us.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I think you're confusing "Vote Harris" with "Vote Harris and do nothing else". Obviously voting for a slightly lesser genocider isn't sufficient, but she seems more open to changing than Trump which is worth something.

The Democratic party can occasionally be strong-armed into doing something less horrible, the Republican party would probably do the bad thing harder to spite you. I prefer the more malleable candidates for achieving my goals. That being said, there's no use yelling at people for not voting Harris, because what's done is done, and there's no lesson yelling will teach.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

We, the working class, should have voted for the anti-genocide candidate (there was one) and the fact that we didn't convince enough people that it is possible to elect them and to vote for them means we failed palestine. That is our failure.

We should have done better. Better was possible. We failed them.

But in the same way our government has failed us by not even having a non-genocide option that feels viable to most people. This is inherently democratic considering most people do not support genocide. You should be angry at the Democratic party most of all and you should be afraid because you now know that they are willing to abandon anyone they claim to protect. You should now know that their words are meaningless. If they are willing to slaughter these hundreds of thousands, what makes you thing they'll actually do anything to protect. Our rights are carrot they dangle in front of us and fascists are the stick they use to threaten us.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

you now know that they are willing to abandon anyone they claim to protect.

I don't think you feel irony here for anyone who is, say, LGBTQ, PoC, Ukranianian, Female or poor.

You should now know that their words are meaningless

Well... That could immediately be applied to anyone who helps get conservatives elected as well, wouldn't you say? Only to a much greater degree, since the people hurt are much more numerous.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I am not really abandoning anyone by not voting for her. Though I did, regardless, for my partners sake, not that it made any difference where I am but that's probably the only reason I felt comfortable doing it. I'm not abandoning anyone because democrats weren't going to save them. The moment the overton window shifted further right they'd abandon whatever group came next. They were already competing for who can be the most transphobic as far as I am concerned.

The fact that they never codified Roe v. Wade while they had a super majority should have been revealing enough for most people to realize they only value our rights so long as it they can be used as a tool to gain votes but alas

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

I already knew that party sucked, and our options in the election sucked. I've seen them move farther right to appeal to the mythical moderate rather than actually become something anyone would like to vote for. That does not change anything I said in the last reply.

My vote is not an endorsement, nor a signal that I trust them, it is merely one lever which I use tactically. Harris was the tactical vote.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago

Hate to say that video has been on my mind pretty much constantly these last 6 or so months...

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago

No, seriously. What was the benefit to Gaza in letting America fall to a fascist who cares even less about Gaza? They're not even gonna get lip service. Israeli politicians are already like 'what few restraints we had are now gone, let's do it once and for all.'

The situation over there wouldn't be much better, if y'all had stopped telling people not to vote against a fascist - but it would be better. Nevermind how much better we'd all be, over here, where you fucking live. This was a course of action with no material benefit to anyone you care about. How the fuck is it our fault, for pointing out that's what would happen?