Remember when Japan was not respecting the borders?
this post was submitted on 26 Aug 2024
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My reckless, irresponsible “solution” would be to just shoot ’em the fuck down. It’s a good thing I’m not in charge of Japanese border security. I’d probably start World War 3.
That ought to be fun with all the border disputes. Some islands are claimed by 4 (well, 5) nations:
- Japan
- South Korea
- North Korea (because they claim the south and all their claims)
- Taiwan
- China
I mean sometimes they didn't even mean to be in your airspace, the instruments on the craft just went goofy and now they're lost. It wouldn't be cool to shoot someone down just because they don't know where they are.
(Not saying this is what happened, just that it can happen)
Meh, Turkey shot down a Russian jet and nothing happened a handful of years back. Can you really be that mad when a fighter breaching protected airspace is shot down?
Yes, you can.
Russia and Turkey have very different political dynamics than China and Japan.
Also, these types of airspace incursions, followed by intercepts, are pretty standard amongst major powers.
It doesn't mean they're benign, but that shooting down Chinese planes intentionally as a response, is something you do if you're willing and ready for the escalation path to result in open conflict, not simply an escalation.
Whereas these airspace incursions are just… something you do?
I mean, sure. When you have the world by the balls because you produce nearly 100% of all the worlds goods, what are you going to do? Say no?
China’s manufacturing capability is economically important in the short term but should hardly be looked at as a stranglehold on the entire world. Different countries have previously held the crown for “manufacturer of the world’s cheap rubbish” and India and Vietnam are currently vying for their turn to wear it. China will lose their supremacy before they’re able to do anything f politically strategic with it on the global scale.
My reckless, irresponsible “solution” would be to just shoot ’em the fuck down.
Reconnaissance aircraft are notoriously difficult to hit, due to their high altitude and high speed.
Firing a bunch of ordinance into the sky would just mean raining it back down on your own population.
Reconnaissance aircraft are notoriously difficult to hit, due to their high altitude and high speed.
I mean, maybe in the 80's? The technological advancements of SAM have basically made speed and altitude mean next to nothing. Now most things depend on being hard to pick up on radar, or like the plane in the article, are just large planes filled with electronic warfare equipment.
Firing a bunch of ordinance into the sky would just mean raining it back down on your own population.
This would have been over the Pacific......
The technological advancements of SAM have basically made speed and altitude mean next to nothing.
Show me the American-made hypersonic air defense missile.
It’s called patriot. It’s shot down multiple Russian Kinzhals in Ukraine.
Sure it has.
Doubt all you want, but you don’t have to meet a hypersonic missile where it is, only where it will be. They aren’t very maneuverable at their maximum velocities which means it’s possible to shoot them down with a slower intercept missile provided the battery is in a favorable location to make an intercept in time.
you don’t have to meet a hypersonic missile where it is, only where it will be
Just fire the bullet to hit the other bullet, sure. Very easy and we do it successfully all the time.
it’s possible to shoot them down with a slower intercept missile
Theoretically.
You can watch this happen all the time in practice with slower missiles with the iron dome. The math is the same.
The math is the same.
Lolz. Lmao, even.
This kind of pro-Russian cope was much more justifiable 2 and a half years ago. Now that reality has unveiled the decrepit, incompetent reality that lies beneath the propaganda, it's just sad. I hope this cheerleading is just a halfhearted effort on your part (or that you're doing it for a few rubles per post), otherwise this is pathetic.
Now that reality has unveiled the decrepit, incompetent reality that lies beneath the propaganda
I mean, we're saying this with a Boeing Starliner stranded at the ISS. But sure, America has a super-secret anti-hypersonic missile system that's just like the Iron Dome (nobody ask how Hamas was piercing the Most Sophisticated Defense System in the world with a box full of scraps, btw) only 10x better.
I hope this cheerleading is just a halfhearted
This whole thread is nothing but cheerleading. You're even fan-casting the existence of anti-missile systems the US admits it doesn't have.
You must have me confused with somebody else. I'm the one saying hypersonic missiles are pointless. The US toyed with them 50 years ago, and AD was obviously much less advanced than it is today. Not only that, but AFAIK the Sprint Missile is still the fastest of all time, so by your own standard where more speed makes for a better missile, you should be cheering for the USA.
hypersonic missiles are pointless
An even bolder claim.
the Sprint Missile is still the fastest of all time
The theory behind the Sprint Missile was to deflect an ICBM with a nuclear blast. That's definitely a potential solution to a hypersonic missile attack, but I'm sure you can think of a few reasons why it didn't go into mass production.
My point is that the concept itself is antiquated. The US restarted their hypersonic missile programs a few years ago due to media and public pressure caused by Russian and Chinese propaganda about their wunderwaffen. It's one of those ideas like railguns that resurfaces every few decades and gets shelved again.
Er, actually, I take it back... Please report to your superiors that hypersonic missiles are the future, and that decadent westoids are terrified of them. Prioritise these programs at all costs (other than keeping the Kuznetsov afloat, because that is also very important).
the concept itself is antiquated
"Fast moving thing is hard to stop" goes straight back to antiquity, sure. But post-Cold War or mattered a lot less because we no longer had a first generation military adversary.
The US restarted their hypersonic missile programs a few years ago due to media and public pressure caused by Russian and Chinese propaganda
Yes, because the US media and the US MIC aren't joined at the hip. GE Aerospace was strong armed by Hulu, which was strong armed by TEMU and Rosneft in turn.
Please report to your superiors that hypersonic missiles are the future
Americans will spend their last billion dollars on one more new aircraft carrier rather than go to therapy.
The only one positing that a missile defense system has to be 100% effective to be real is you.
a missile defense system has to be 100% effective to be real
It can be 0% effective, so long as it turns a profit. The best anti-air system is the one people simply think is effective.
It's the ultimate Bear Patrol. People will pay through the nose, convinced the shield is why they've never been hit.
I mean there's material evidence out there that pretty well proves it, and Russia has ceased to claim that they're fake reports.
If the kinzhal missiles were actually "hypersonic missiles" that could maneuver at speed, then yeah they'd be hard to intercept. However, the kinzhal are actually just missiles with a ramjet, meaning they hold a fairly normal flight trajectory and can be targeted by systems like the patriot.
Shooting a bullet with another bullet is basically what all anti air systems do, the only thing that changes is the scaling in the math.
Russia has ceased to claim that they’re fake reports
If I had a dollar for every time some hack talk radio announcer claimed "They're not even denying it anymore, folks!"
Shooting a bullet with another bullet is basically what all anti air systems do
The Iron Dome is regularly penetrated by bottle rockets and radio shack drones. This was supposed to be the top of the line in anti-air defense. But sure, Boeing is sitting on something that's way better.
The Y9 in question here though is slow, fat, and low - max speed of 360kn and a service ceiling of 10,000m. It's a cargo plane with EW stuff on it.
Then it seems like there's a leap of logic between "cargo plane" and "reconnaissance aircraft". Very possible it was just an inexperienced/behind schedule pilot cutting corners on the route.
Seems like a dick move to kill an entire plane full of people because someone decided to short-cut through your airspace.
Very possible it was just an inexperienced/behind schedule pilot cutting corners on the route.
In a vacuum, maybe. In the context of how China has been acting towards nearly all of their neighbors recently, not likely. This reeks of wolf warrior diplomacy.
In the context of how China has been acting towards nearly all of their neighbors
The Western reporting coverage of Chinese military operations is slanted to paint China as an aggressor, in the same way Western reporting of Iraq in the early 2000s was slanted to paint Iraqis as terrorists.
You don't read about American military aircraft invading Japanese airspace because Japan is occupied territory. You don't read about Taiwanese aircraft invading Chinese airspace, because there's no defined territorial line between them on account of Taiwan being contested territory.
This reeks of wolf warrior diplomacy.
China sending a single Rambo-esque supersoldier in to liberate native peoples from an evil mercenary army?
The Western reporting coverage of Chinese military operations is slanted to paint China as an aggressor
China is literally aggressive in both active and passive ways, maybe some news outlets are exaggerating a little for clicks, but it's not by much
You don't read about American military aircraft invading Japanese airspace because Japan is occupied territory.
Japan isn't "occupied territory" they are a US ally who allows us to have a base there for rapid response and protection.
You don't read about Taiwanese aircraft invading Chinese airspace, because there's no defined territorial line between them on account of Taiwan being contested territory.
Lol, nah, Taiwan is a country the only one contesting it is China in the same way that Russia is "contesting" that Ukraine is their territory.
This reeks of wolf warrior diplomacy.
China sending a single Rambo-esque supersoldier in to liberate native peoples from an evil mercenary army?
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It's called strategic boundary pushing China has been known to do such things with their other neighbors
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You reek of a China apologist
China is literally aggressive in both active and passive ways
Are we doing the "Chinese Weather Balloon" hysteria again?
Japan isn’t “occupied territory” they are a US ally
Starting in which year?
Taiwan is a country the only one contesting it is China
Where does Taiwanese airspace end and Chinese airspace begin? Would it surprise you to discover that Taiwan claims airspace over the south end of China?
I know folks on here love making the "East Taiwan" joke, but are you seriously going to argue that Xiamen and Fuzhou are also part of Taiwan?
It’s called strategic boundary pushing
Are we doing the "Chinese Weather Balloon" hysteria again?
Ah yea, when people are concerned when a near-hostile country sends over unknown aircraft unannounced it's just "hysteria". Not like those weather balloons are perfectly capable of carrying bombs or biowarfare contagions or anything.....
Starting in which year?
April 28, 1952 when the San Francisco Peace Treaty that was signed on September 8, 1951 went into effect.
Here's a wikipedia article all about US-Japan relations since you appear to have flunked highschool history
a near-hostile country sends over unknown aircraft
A country's biggest trading partner losing control of a very-well-established-as-weather-balloon aircraft.
April 28, 1952 when the San Francisco Peace Treaty that was signed on September 8, 1951 went into effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Course
Fascinating stuff for a fully democratic and not-at-all militarily occupied country to undergo. If you're into Wikipedia articles, you should give it a read. Full consolidation of economic power under a few US-loyal Zaibatsus that dominate the country into the modern day. Rearming of a police force loyal to the occupying US government, which was dedicated to busting up unions and crippling the nascent labor-rights movement in the country. And rapid expansion of military bases, in the run up to the US invasion and aerial bombardment of the Korean Peninsula.
Why does this picture place a US military base in Hong Kong?
Edit: also, identification zone =/= claimed airspace
US aircraft carriers patrol the territory regularly.
Are we doing the “Chinese Weather Balloon” hysteria again?
If the US sent a bunch of weather balloons into Chinese airspace without any warning and they approached government and military sites, would you say the same thing?
Without explicit permission from the government it is a breach of sovereignty. The US had the right to annihilate all of those balloons the instant they passed into US airspace -- just like China has the right to destroy the hypothetical US balloons as soon as they pass into Chinese airspace.
For how often China beats the drum about sovereignty, they should know this.
If the US sent a bunch of weather balloons into Chinese airspace without any warning
The US had the right to annihilate all of those balloons the instant they passed into US airspace
The US feds panicked at the bad press and created a rain of falling debris over South Carolina. Heck of a job.
Dude what? China’s near-daily incursions over Taiwan have escalated and escalated to an objectively ridiculous level. Nobody “painting” shit.
China’s near-daily incursions over Taiwan
This is what we're defining as an "incursion over Taiwan".
Not a mistake anyone would make accidentally. They wouldn’t be allowed to fly near hostile territory without being well informed of the risks and consequences. This was a planned and deliberate action, or Chinas airforce is incompetent and can’t be trusted.
Both are dangerous and shouldn’t be tolerated in your territory.
Not a mistake anyone would make accidentally.
It's a routine mistake that happens regularly, particularly when there is a large amount of traffic and a crop of younger personal.
Both are dangerous and shouldn’t be tolerated in your territory.
We've flipped from "China is being too hostile" to "The US isn't being hostile enough".
But it turns out they're two sides of the same coin. Americans simply can't get enough war.
Reconnaissance aircraft are notoriously difficult to hit
With exceptions for the United State's top shelf stealth planes the Japanese are quite capable of shooting down anything flying in earths atmosphere. In the event that Japanese can't do it the United States Aircraft Carrier Group assigned to Japan absolutely can.
the Japanese are quite capable of shooting down anything flying in earths atmosphere
Sure. Just put in a call to the Americans to do it for them.
Still not clear why anyone is shooting down Chinese cargo planes.