'Have a second look': Surge in motorcycle deaths prompts desperate plea to drivers (www.abc.net.au)

submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[-] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So far this year, at the time of writing, 52 riders had lost their lives on Queensland roads, making 2023 to date the deadliest year for motorbike riders for five years.

I have no doubt car drivers are causing lots of accidents with motorbikes, but living near a main road I find it hard to believe the riders aren't at least partially to blame for a decent number of those fatalities.

Unless there's a legitimate reason for bikes to be hitting like 20,000rpm on one wheel of course. I'm not a rider so maybe this is one of those "loud pipes save lives" type things I hear so much about, where being obnoxious is justified as safety.

Anyone got a breakdown of at fault versus not at fault fatalities?

[-] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I found some Vic stats from which you could infer some stuff: https://www.tac.vic.gov.au/road-safety/statistics/summaries/motorcycle-crash-data

It seems that it's a roughly half half split of single vehicle vs multi vehicle.
Even if you conservatively assume that only a quarter of the mutlivehicle accidents are the fault of the rider, it's still well over 50% motorcyclists killing themselves.

But that's not what this particular campaign is about.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

As I understand it - the biggest segment is men who buy their first bike in their midlife crisis. They buy expensive, large, powerful motorcycles that are difficult to ride and combined with a lack of experience that's basically suicide.

And yeah, when it's a multi-vehicle incident it's still regularly the rider's fault. For example they might crash in a corner and slide across the road into the bullbar of a 4WD coming around the corner in the other direction. Often they're going "too fast" as the police would call it, but realistically the corner could have been navigated safely at the speed they're were travelling... it's just inexperience, combined with the sudden appearance of a scary 4WD coming around the corner, tends to create a momentary panic reaction and the natural reaction is to grab the brakes. Which might serve you well in a car with ABS... but slamming on the brakes hard while leaned over in a corner on a bike will result in a crash every time.

As a rider, I think it should be illegal to ride those bikes until you've got at least 50,000km of experience riding a lighter weight / safer bike. We do (at least in QLD) restrict the type of bike you can ride for the first 12 months, but that's not long enough (I see a lot of new riders who just don't buy a bike their first 12 months after getting a license) and also it's based on power to weight ratio... which is wrong. It should just be based on weight ignoring power. Most accidents happen cornering and braking, and those two have nothing to do with engine power. A lighter bike, however, is much easier to handle when they do start sliding.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

Anecdote incoming:

Every motorcyclist I ever see is driving like a fucking maniac, solidly 20 mph faster than traffic, aggressively weaving between cars, using the breakdown lane at their convenience, etc.

I know there are "safe, normal" riders but the ones I interact with all seem like they are tempting death for fun

[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Counter point: those are the only riders you notice.

[-] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago

Anecdote pre declared, your counterpoint is parried.

[-] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

You said every rider you ever see is breaking the law. Which is clearly nonsense. Meanwhile dont pretend you never break any road rules.

And finally

solidly 20 mph

The topic is motorbikes in queensland. Not america.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Both main points you raised related to my sharing an anecdote, which, as you seemingly don't know the word generally means:

A biographical event specific to the speaker's experience.

So yes, every rider I SEE, implying the ones I personally detect, and personally NOTICE.

Next I used whatever speed unit I wanted because the condition of reckless motorbike usage is not specific to Queensland, and as I already mentioned I was using an anecdote (again reminder that means a story about my own life, sorry if you forgot again), I used the speed unit that applied to where I experienced it.

If you're confused about when I started my anecdote refer to the first two words of my comment.

Lastly nice attempt with the Tu Quoque fallacy, suggesting I am a lawbreaker too and therefore can't criticize others. Childish.

Get parried, begone, drive safely.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Definitely my experience

[-] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I assume you're not an Aussie, since you said mph?

But sure... all over the world there are idiots who ride...

The thing is though, if they weren't on a bike they'd be going even faster and driving even more aggressively behind the wheel of a nice safe truck (safe for the driver anyway).

At least on the bike the risk encourages them to be a little less aggressive and they're less likely to hurt anyone else.

[-] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Where is the incentive to ride safe when they are paying half the rego (too much!) to share the roads with people who so careless that they'd kill them without hardly noticing they hit something? Im not saying its ok. Im saying I understand it.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

"The vehicle I choose to drive puts me at greater risk of injury and death, regardless of who is at fault, so I'm going to drive in a manner that further increases my risk of injury or death."

See how ridiculous that sounds?

[-] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

God forbid motorcyclists try help reduce pollution or congestion on the roads. But nah thats cool, idiot drivers keep hitting and killing us. Its only driving up your TAC.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Why not make it easier for drivers not to hit them?

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Surely they have more incentive to drive safe coz the price of having an accident is so much higher for them (physical injury, maiming and death).

[-] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I'm not saying they shouldnt ride safe. Riders doing 80kmh along hoddle street amongst stop start traffic are insane. But doing illegal stuff to avoid cars is often not unsafe riding. Staying the F away from cars is the safest bet.

[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:

Authorities say more motorcycles on the road and less experienced riders may be contributing to a surge in fatal motorbike crashes in Queensland.

Police Superintendent Douglas McDonald, who oversees the Southern Queensland district, said motorcylists were some of the most vulnerable road users.

As Queensland Road Safety Week begins, police said their constant reminders to "slow down" and stay attentive remained unchanged.

Toowoomba-based motorcycle instructor Tony Gallagher said there was a lot more traffic on the road now than a couple of years ago during lockdowns.

"If you see someone on a side street, set your brakes and slow down, you might lose 5 kilometres an hour, but you're not going to be late for work."

But for all the talk of dangers on the road for riders, Mr Gallagher said he couldn't imagine a life without a motorbike.

The original article contains 514 words, the summary contains 134 words. Saved 74%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[-] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

52 more instances of silence.

[+] [email protected] -14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's weird there's always calls for drivers to be more careful, but not the people making the choice to ride an unsafe vehicle.

Like wearing stilts to a moshpit and asking everyone else to be more careful and attentive.

Yeah, they should be considerate. But at the end of the day, you should be the one that cares most about your personal safety.

[-] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago

Nice victim blaming. Most motorcyclist deaths are due to them being hit by cars, but it's their fault you're saying?

[-] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

to be honest, as a rider, i always blame myself if i'm in a position to be hit by a car.

you really have to assume everyone is going to do the wrong thing and ride accordingly. it doesn't matter if someone wasn't supposed to do something, someone will eventually fail to see you and you've got to plan for it. I've had near misses but no accidents - and every near miss was a good lesson in what to look for in future. on a bike road rules are nice to know but you have to monitor everything for threats and make sure you're always in a safe position. if you ride in someone's blind spot you're actively putting yourself in danger.

having said that, the op comment is an asshole. YES obviously car drivers should be more aware. what the fuck? if you're obliviously running people off the road you don't blame them, good lord what a fucking psycho.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There's a distinction between being cautious and always being at fault. Of course you should always be extra cautious as a rider, but that doesn't mean it's your fault if a car flattens you.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Oh I agree, it's more a mental attitude - if I take on the risk of riding, I need to take on the responsibility of anticipating what other road users might do. If I end up in an accident part of that is failing to fully anticipate the stupid, illegal shit car drivers constantly do that will kill you.

Sure, the guy who turning right across two lanes in front of me was at fault, but I had the opportunity to spot him slowing down to make the turn and I know cars don't always see bikes or indicate. I can move to the outside of the road to give myself more space, I can roll off and cover the brake, and then I can accelerate as soon as I can to get past them quickly so I'm out of danger.

If I do none of those things and don't notice the car, I consider myself at fault even if the car was doing something illegal.

After the fact of course you can say the car driver was at fault but it's completely academic when you're dead, so before that happens you need to take on as much responsibility as possible.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Somebody else shared stats that show about half the accidents involving motorcycles don't involve any other vehicles. So it's not quite victim blaming in this case.

[-] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago

I can't stand it when people jump to the "victim-blaming" conclusion; anyone can be the victim, just depends on how you look at it plus it avoids actually responding to the argument

[+] [email protected] -8 points 1 year ago

No, I'm saying it's weird to ask everyone to care more about someone's health and safety than that person does.

Motorcycles aren't as safe as cars, even if everyone is careful. Accidents happen, and cars have seatbelts, airbags, and a shit ton of other modern inventions.

Motorcycles have helmets and leather jackets, both of which aren't required everywhere so motorcyclists don't even wear them all the time.

If you cared about motorcyclists, I'd think this time would be better spent trying to make motorcycles safer by pushing for legislation.

Hell, they made those inflatable cocoons that go off like a giant airbag years ago. I've never seen one on the road, because they're not "cool". And if someone values safety over coolness, they wouldn't be on a motorcycle at first

[-] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

No, I’m saying it’s weird to ask everyone to care more about someone’s health and safety than that person does.

Now do "provocatively dressed women are asking to be raped..."

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

There’s a difference between what is fair and what is common sense. If I had a daughter I would love to tell her she should go wherever she wants, whenever she wants, alone or drunk.

In practice I’m sure I’ll temper that message with some sad but realistic advice about having a friend on the phone while in the cab and never accepting drinks from strangers.

Motorcycle riders choose to put themselves in a much much more vulnerable state, so they have to be more aware and more vigilant. In an ideal world everyone is paying attention and awake and sober on the road, reality is different and I won’t be betting my life on everyone around me driving correctly while riding a petrol tank strapped to a motor.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

This is the nuance that givesomefucks failed to express.
Long term motorcyclists are aware of the choice they have made.
That doesn't abrogate other drivers of their own responsibility.

[-] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago

Oh wow, slippery slope?

People are just busting out the classics today, aren't they?

[-] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

but, won't car drivers being more aware help? if that's a big factor, wouldn't it be good to address?

if i'm reading this right, you don't think car drivers should have to worry if they're going to kill someone, because you think that person deserves it due to the risk they personally took on?

you think it's too much to expect someone driving a safer vehicle to drive safely and not kill other people? you resent being told to pay basic attention while driving a car because if you hit someone that isn't also in a car, they might die and that pisses you off?

wtf?

[-] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago

Motorcycle: 600 pounds, very good sight lines, ability to hear surroundings, maneuverable around obstacles

Car: over 2000 pounds, poor sight lines, poor stopping and maneuverabilty, lots of distractions.

motorcycles are more dangerous to the operator

cars are more dangarous to other road users

[-] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

If it's known that cars are less manoeuvrable and have poorer sight lines, why do motorcyclists insist on gunning it past cars and swerving into the next lane before they've fully cleared the car they're trying to overtake. Not to mention the constant overtaking from the left, which is a completely moronic thing to do. If they're weaving in and out of traffic rather than just staying in their lane and spot, they're far less likely to sneak up on a car unawares and get hit.

That is entirely on them.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, thats quite true. Thats a pretty irresbonsible way to ride.

The main cause of collisions between cars and motorcycles is right-of-way violations, when a car turns right across traffic without looking to see if a motorcycle is oncoming.

The second cause is right-of-way violations, when a car pulls left onto the roadway without looking to see if a motorcycle is oncoming.

Both of these result in a head-on collision that is very diffcult to avoid. It's the reason why the campaigns focus on "look twice".

These two car violations are also the leading cause of cyclist and pedestrian death and injury.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I reckon you're still more likely to walk away from a crash between two cars than one between two motorcycles

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Crash between two motorcycles is such an edge case it doesn't even matter. Car hitting a motorcycle is the leading cause of death and ijury for motorcycle. The person operating the machine most capable of killing others is responsible for not killing others

[-] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

But if we all rode motorcycles, this wouldn't be an edge case; we would all be less safe. Thus, if everyone drove cars we would be safer. Safe cars can be had second hand for cheap, hence it is the choice of the rider to forego safety when riding a motorcycle. I'm not saying it's unreasonable to ask that car drivers stay aware of motorcycles, but to make them wholly responsible for the safety of motorcyclists is ridiculous

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

thats a reduction of the topic beyond whats reasonable. I did not say that motrcyclists were not responsible for their own safety. What I have said is that car drivers are also responsible for rider safety.

Motorcycles are most dangerous to the operator, the operator must take responsibility for their safety.

Cars are most dangerous to everyone who is not the operator, therefore the operator is responsible for their safety too.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/youre-a-cyclist-who-was-just-struck-by-a-car-driver-heres-why-it-was-your-fault

[-] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Did you read the article? It's primarily aimed at motorcycle riders and states that rider behaviour is a large contributor to crashes. It urges motorcyclists to slow down and stay attentive, watch for hazards (vehicles and road conditions), keep an eye on traffic that might pull out onto the road in front of you. Seems all reasonable stuff to me.

It's only the last section that's mentions the need for drivers to be careful. And even then it's only "please take a second look" which is always good advice. Always check twice so you don't pull out and hit a motorcycle (or bicyclist, or pedestrian!) that was blocked from your view by the A-pillar when you glanced at traffic.

this post was submitted on 20 Aug 2023

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