this post was submitted on 15 Feb 2024
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I think you'd be hard pressed to find parents who don't have an issue with their kids teacher also being a pornographer
I would have a lot greater issues with my kids' teachers being reactionaries.
well I think the majority of parents closely guard their children when it comes to this issue (in a general sense), because children are very easily exploited, and this matter is one that's very easy for people to exploit others with, so they want to be fully in control or at least oversight of the teaching of this subject - the same goes for politics. Not always with great results of course, and sometimes unintentionally (or in the worst cases intentionally) harmfully, but mostly because of that protective impulse.
Generally, when parents talk about what they want their children to be, they say happy and prosperous, and something useful like a scientist or a bus driver or similar, or to follow in their own career sometimes. I've never heard a parent say they want their children to become pornographers. And again, the vast majority of parents don't want an authority figure and role model for their child to be one. I don't think this is because they don't want their children to grow up to not enjoy or engage in normal human interactions, but rather that its something that can (and often does) carry a great deal of risk and harm, and they want to wait for an appropriate time, when they're wiser, for them to experience or learn about it.
So I'm not sure your implied accusation (I hope I haven't misread you) that its reactionary to not want a pornographer teacher is true.
Theres lots of people I don't want my children around, and pornstars are nowhere near the top of that list. Fascists and reactionaries are. If you open up firing people for what they do in their free time, then I think we should focus on those that are actually harmful first.
Do you think having an OnlyFans gives you a craving to make CP?? Do you think OnlyFans hosts CP?
One of the biggest groups of sexual offenders are cops, and they're placed IN SCHOOLS for some reason.
No, and I'd prefer if you try to take what I say in good faith, it'll make this discussion easier and maybe even productive - those are silly questions to ask. That isn't the only issue, just the most extreme one. Its about how and when a child learns about any aspect of this topic, and their learnt perspective on it.
Again, two bad things don't make a good thing. I wouldn't want my children to have cops in schools, because I'd worry that they would influence their development & education, being authority figures and role models.
I'm taking what you are saying in as good faith as possible - that is believing that you believe it. These questions are only as silly as your own premise - So incredibly silly. They serve to highlight the fault in your belief. The fact that you so readily dismiss them (combined with your previous debatebrobehaviour) shows you are not acting in good faith.
Again you are here implying that the teacher somehow presents the OF content for the children. That's sick.
Fuck I unblocked you because I thought you might just've been an idiot, goes to show how far good will gets you, I guess.
ok, well I'll assume I'm unblocked... thanks, I'm glad you don't think I'm just an idiot.
I said it wasn't in good faith, because nowhere have I explicitly or implicitly stated anything to do with the subject of your questions - I'm talking about pornography, and a pornographer teacher, being an issue. Of course it goes without saying that the worst of it (that you brought up) is an issue, and I wouldn't expect that would need to be stated or implied in this discussion, or I'd hope any other. So it looked to me like you were trying to accuse me of making a connection that I haven't. Good faith is not simply assuming your interlocutor believes what they say, its also not putting words in their mouth or arguing with something they haven't said or implied.
I'm not implying that the teacher presents their pornography for children - if that were the case I'd expect they'd be more than simply fired, but also prosecuted. Its rather that when this becomes public knowledge, it is widely known in the community, and there is a risk that children could have access to it, and/or simply be aware that their role model & authority figure is a pornographer. With children, because they are different from adults, we have to be very strict with our risk assessments and eliminate all possible and actual sources of harm. With this subject, there is a high degree of risk and potential harm.
So why should a teacher be fired from their job if their students decided to sexualize them and actively search for pornography that they might be in?
The students in this particular instance are elementary school kids. So ... if they're searching for porn at that age... what's going on with the parents?
Hot take, elementary school kids shouldn't be held to the same standards of adults. They shouldn't have access to pornography and they especially shouldn't have access to pornography of people they know in real life.
This isn't a blame game, it's about who gets to be protected. The teacher being fired is not saying she did a moral wrong. It's saying I prefer for a classroom of children to avoid any chance of seeing porn of their teacher. If we could guarantee that only adults could access her onlyfans, then it would be different.
You either protect the teacher, or the classroom of children. Neither did anything wrong but you should choose to protect the children in this case.
what is more offensive about "pornography of people they know in real life"? sexworkers are all real people that deserve the same respect and dignity as anyone else, doing sexwork doesn't corrupt one's soul or make all contexts they exist in sexual. should porn performers not be allowed to walk down public sidewalks? there might be kids there!
There is nothing bad about a person doing porn tho, it's entirely separate and irrelevant to being a teacher what are you talking about
"Don't sit on that public toilet seat!!! You might catch prostitution!"
Not to mention that the possibility of a child seeing porn of their teacher is absolutely enough of a reason to say no.
I don't blame the teacher, but I'd prefer for the children to be protected in this circumstances. If it comes to securing the rights of a child or the right of an adult, I'll make my choice. Having young children access porn is abuse enough as it is. The potential that it's going to be someone they know in real life is even beyond that.
it's absolutely reactionary, sex work is just work. and parents are far more likely to abuse children than sex workers anyways
If they're not doing it in front of the kids or the parents then it's not the kids or the parents' business.
sure, but once its found out, it is their business since it becomes public knowledge. No doubt many teachers get up to the usual range of activities of various kinds that are seen as illicit or taboo in secret, but they're public role models for children in their profession, so.
Those other commenters have accepted a premise baked into your comment that I do not. Why can't a public role model also be a model on OnlyFans? The only reason you would think that those two things are incompatible is if you think that there is something morally wrong with one of them, which I don't believe holds water. There is no form of sex work that I believe disqualifies someone from being a role model, and therefore a teacher, a parent, a counselor, or anything else.
I think the other person is not wording their point correctly. Let me try to word it for them, at the risk of putting words in their mouth.
It is revealed to a group of 17-18 year old high school boys that their teacher does porn. These boys have access to the internet. What do you think is going to happen next? Obviously what will happen is that someone will look it up, share it, and then it causes a problem. Not because it's immoral but because you have immature horny creatures bringing something into the school that isn't appropriate. It's inappropriate because school is for learning not ridiculing or being sexist towards your teacher for doing porn.
In a purely practical sense, of teaching students with as little interruptions and interpersonal conflict as possible, it's easier to not employ the teacher doing porn. It removes a factor of friction in an already tedious and complex job.
If we lived under communism where a community of parents could take time off of their jobs and go to school with their kids, and the teacher could pause teaching, then we could ensure those kids were taught a valuable life lesson about what is and isn't appropriate, how to react to porn, and all that. But we don't live in that society, we live in the one where schools are essentially prisons that double as job training centers. Nobody has the time and we don't have the material underpinnings of an accepting culture. Thus, teachers who do porn will be fired.
For the tldr crowd...
"Its easier to fire a teacher than it is to teach teenagers that sexually harassing a teacher is wrong."
Well, I can't TLDR because everyone in this chain is hypersensitive right now and looking for any room to accuse everyone being secret reactionary sex puritan chuds. Sometimes you have to explain stuff.
But if anyone here thinks they can convince a local school board to reinstate OnlyFans teacher and give a moving West Wing speech to convince all the kids that porn is actually rizzed up with the sauce, then do it. I mean it's not like this site has any major differences in opinion on porn anyways. I'm sure we all have the correct true leftist take and can publicly broadcast that message to liberals and reactionaries in a way that actually solves the problem of sexism in Western Culture.
Its not so much whether sex work is or isn't immoral, or unethical, I'd consider that a separate discussion, but rather how that practice relates to children and their education and development. Something can be ok for adults to learn about or engage in but not for children.
As an example, its usually seen as not a good thing for children to learn about being a soldier (even if it happens in practice), despite it being a very good way of making soldiers, to teach them young. But the resulting harm to those children and society makes it generally outlawed, and certainly against public opinion. This is seperate and distinct from an argument about whether its good or bad, right or wrong for an adult to learn about being a soldier. The same applies to drug use - you need to be wiser and better educated than a child to engage with it, because of the risks and harms involved.
edit; to further clarify, with the soldier analogy, you might be ok with it being taught in a structured and carefully thought out way, but not for children to be watching war footage, if you see what I mean.
The soldier analogy maybe would make sense if kids' books weren't chock full of stories of soldiers in wars. If kids' movies weren't mostly based on plots of violence involving people fighting in wars. If kids didn't "play army" consistently. If kids were never exposed to veterans through school assemblies. If military recruiters weren't given full access to schools. But unfortunately, all of these things happen, I experienced them when I was in school.
It's foolish to think war and soldiers aren't heavily, heavily romanticized in our society, and much of that romanticization is directly aimed at children. I do think this is getting less bad over time, luckily. I know the military is having a difficult time recruiting enough people, so that's good.
But fundamentally, I think sex is cool and good while war is lame and bad, so I would have zero issue with an onlyfans model teaching children and I would not want a veteran or national guard reservist teaching children.
how do you feel about military recruiters in highschools?
how do you feel about traumatized war criminals becoming teachers?
Being an OnlyFans model is not a moral wrong, but the industry of modern pornography is absolutely incompatible with a moral society.
You are an adult, at the very least you have your defined sexuality. Imagine a child's first experience with sexuality being porn of their teacher. We all know that porn dehumanizes women, but imagine how it will affect children when that person is someone they know in real life?
No one did anything morally wrong here. But you have to prioritize the protection of the children or the teacher. I choose the children, you choose the teacher. What conclusion you get from this is up to you.
I agree, but it isn't the sex workers who are the problem with the industry of modern pornography. It's the human traffickers, the sleazy producers, the pimps and all the other rent seeking capitalists who make the industry bad.
I imagine that it will humanize sex workers in the eyes of the children, whereas squirreling all of them away into the dark corners of society where they can't be seen serves to further dehumanize them.
Okay, but the first response to that should be "sit down with your child and discuss appropriate boundaries," not "fire the teacher." Holy fuck stop being afraid to be a parent and just talk to your damn children, people.
Here's the neat part: No it isn't. It's not something the teacher does at school or during school hours, so it's not public business.
What if the teacher wrote 90's gangster rap songs? What if the teacher was a gun nut? What if the teacher wrote the next big group of gritty fantasy novels like ASoIaF? Lots of SA in those books... Should the teacher be fired then? What if the teacher lands a gig on Law & Order SVU as some sort of sexual offender? What if the teacher likes to jog in bootyshorts? That's kinda scandalous. What if the teacher drinks pepsi, but this is a coke town?
All of those reasons are precisely as valid as your "concern" for a teacher with OnlyFans
Something that a teacher advertises publicly is the public's business.
I think if they're writing books with that kind of material, then yes - I'd fire nabakov immediately for example (at the least). With the 90s gangster rap, it depends on the content. With the guns, it depends on what kind of related material they were publically releasing.
Some of your other examples are too petulant and silly to respond to.
Lmao are you Helen Lovejoy?
WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?
What people do in their free time is their own choice. You judge teachers on what they do at school, because that's where they're teachers.
Oh I thought we were supposed to assume good faith in order to have a productive discussion? My examples show that there is no cutoff for your moral panic, it's completely arbitrary. You of course won't engage with this because you're a shithead who thinks "debating" is something to be proud of
Let me put this in the simplest way possible. The second you focus your energies on defending teachers' rights to do online porn, you have ceded the entirety of discourse surrounding the Education System to the conservative right at best, and the fascist right at worst. You will be exiled to the fringes of society by the parents themselves.
Sometimes it's not about Libertad, Carajo.
Let me put this even simpler: If your response to hearing a teacher has an OF is "they should get fired" then you suck. If your response is "well if you defend the teacher for having an OF then you lose the optics war!" then you suck and you're stupid. For one we're on a niche internet forum, nothing here matters. Behaving like this in any way constitutes as the public discourse with weight to change anything is silly. For the other it's not a good thing that teachers have OF platforms, but blaming them for it and going along with that puritanical moral panic is giving away territory in your so precious discourse.
Libertad? This isn't some libertarianism thing.
Also all the people that are arguing "well what if my kids find porn of their teacher?" Should probably implement some sort of parental control, if they're so worried of their children finding porn.
Well we should think of the children, its important socially.
You've said elsewhere that you'd be concerned if a teacher were a facist - would you not mind if they were teaching to the cirriculum at school, but in their time off work publically promoting fascist material? I don't mean to conflate the two subjects (fascism and pornography), but just point out that we don't (and shouldn't) judge teachers just on what they do at school. Of course, then it becomes a question of what is and isn't acceptable for a teacher to be doing in public outside of work, and I don't think its moral panic to say that pornography is not acceptable - sex education and teaching about relationships is very sensitive as a subject for people because as I've said there's a great potential for harm and exploitation.
We should assume good faith until demonstrated otherwise of course. You don't think your pepsi coke thing was silly?
If you think Lolita was condoning its subject matter then you completely misunderstood the entire message of the book. This is why we need media literacy.
So... who was actively searching for this lady on OnlyFans?
They shouldn't have to be public role models though. A teacher shouldn't be held to a different moral standard from any other adult. What the teacher does in their time off is their own business.
As a teacher I disagree. I'm a public servant specialized in dealing with kids. I'm supposed to be held to very high standards. What those standards are is up to the community itself. Refusal to engage with the expectations of said community is just ceding ground to my political enemies, who most likely just want to destroy education as a public service in the first place.
Well they should choose a different job or if they can't, accept the consequences, because that is what that job is by its nature. Just like a parent is a role model for their children - children are very impressionable, not very wise, and one fundamental, 'innate' type of learning is observational/copying. They aren't 'any other adult' they work with children and teach them.
What they do in their time off is their own business, but what they do in public is the public's business.
The job, by its nature, is to teach. That is what they do. You are deciding it suddenly has to include to be some Avatar of public good - although a very strange avatar with a prudish cutoff for what is acceptable.
This is catholic school morality clause shit
catholic, puritan, I think any denomination or any religious or philosophical or constitutional/legal framework worldwide would have a problem with it, barring niche cults and communities.
I suppose you have to ask, if most people would have an issue with it, is it that its simply that they're all wrong, or is there a reason for that kind of social teaching and practice? I think in this case there is, because of the risks involved, and because of the special status of children.
You know what else your arguments remind me of? (Also, sorry to respond to you twice in two different comment threads, I know that's kind of rude, but I already responded the other place and I have another thought from reading this comment. So, sorry.)
Your arguments remind me of people who think my sister shouldn't be teaching because she's visibly trans. She's very openly, publically trans and let me tell you, quite a few parents have an issue with that. These parents think that since my sister is a "role model" for their "very impressionable, not very wise" children whose learning style is "observational/copying", the kids will be influenced by her visible, open transness and become trans themselves.
This is, of course, nonsense, but if we simply listen to parents and remove people those parents have issues with, then we end up in a place where trans people are barred from being teachers because of their transness, and that's just bigotry, pure and simple.
I want to be very clear here, I don't have any reason to think you'd agree with the transphobic parents wanting my sister barred from teaching. But I do think your arguments for why an onlyfans model shouldn't teach are exactly the same as the arguments transphobic parents make about trans teachers. Identical.
Yes they absolutely should. If you're going to be in close contact with children as an authority figure then you need to be held to a higher moral standard.
How about this:
Yeah because Americans are stupid right wing reactionaries that think sex is something Satan gave humanity and get scared when their wee wees harden as a result.
Same logic as drag queens being "groomers" to kids when they read them stories, or trans people being a threat in schools. Just a massive moral panic caused by judeo Christian soylent. A fucking non issue.
I would have a lot greater issue with my kids going to the same school as a bunch of busybodies. As long as the teacher teaches while they're at school, then it's not my business what they do outside of school.