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this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2023
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The People of Tibet might disagree there. But this is a discussion for another Time.
I'm not pro US either, tho. I just call out evil when I see it. And that's my Problem with Lemygrad. They seem to believe there are only two sides. I can say America does bad things and China, Russia etc. does bad things. They pick one side and argue and justify away the crimes "their" Side has done. And that's not how we come forward. Evil is Evil is Evil. No matter who does it.
That's a heavy oversimplification of everything on there... I see the folks on grad being mad about bad decisions by China just the same; they just heavily scrutinize negative news for bias or misinfo, as people should do for everything.
If you do scrutinize your news and sources, I think it's only natural that you'd end up being very anti-west/imperialism, and far less anti-China, specially considering the grip western media and news have on the world. The two are just not equivalent at all.
Here's an example of that. The fact that China's education system makes sure ~90% of Tibetans can speak their cultural language compared to the ~8% of North Americans that can speak theirs means they're just not equivalent. The only countries accusing China of such a fucked up crime like cultural repression are western ones with a political/economic interest for doing so. Muslim countries and the global south side with China on this and Xinjiang.
You don't get it. I don't compare. It is not that is worse than that. China attacked Tibet and conquered their Land. I don't need to compare this to the US. I don't care if Country XYZ says it was good. Evil is Evil is Evil. Pull yourself away from comparing. You don't have to weigh Evil against each other.
EDIT:
You are doing exactly that. You try to argue and justify the annexation of Tibet. You could easily say “Yeah, that was not okay. China invaded and occupied Tibet, this is not okay.” But instead you are trying to compare this to the US and bring up other Countries and what they think. THIS is exactly what I meant.
Shouldn't we look at different sources and scrutinize events and claims thoroughly? You seem to be thinking you're being objective by taking a centrist position on these but this
is a western claim, and exactly what the US and EU wants its citizens to think by drawing a false equivalence between them and their geopolitical rival. Tibet had a popular revolutionary party whose views were in line with the rest of China that wanted China's help overthrowing the Dalai Lama, under whom slavery and serfdom was common in the region. There absolutely were factions supporting the prior feudal rule, but chalking that up to "China invaded and occupied Tibet" is absurd and extremely misleading. Tibet is an autonomous region now.
Hell, the Tibetan uprising against the Chinese government later on was organized by the CIA, and the US is open about it and even proud of it now. Here's a book on that written by a US district judge and a journal by a professor on Tibetan studies. It's similar to how the US overthrew the democratically elected Mosaddegh in Iran because his policies would benefit Iran instead of the US.
Again you feel the need to bring up the US. This is all you got, isn’t it? “Hey, Hey, don’t call out my Camp, look at the US. They are bad!”.
You honestly believe everyone lies? Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, International Campaign for Tibet, Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy, the UN. All lie? But China tells the truth. You are so far gone it’s unbelievable. You question well documented facts, but you won’t believe that a regime that is notorious for lying won’t lie? You are waaaay too far gone that I, a random Person from the Internet, could ever convince you. I’m just going to block you, you are not worth arguing with any further. You have nothing of value to say I couldn't read in a Chinese propaganda pamphlet.
Yes Tibet was a theocratic slave state. But China still invaded and annexed them.
Was the US invasion of Iraq justified because Saddam was a dictator? If we annexed Iraq and didn't make them speak English it would be fine?
Forget it. He is too far gone. We are just Strangers on the Internet, and he lives inside a paranoid nightmare. I tried my best but got nowhere.
I can see his side because Tibet was a Theocratic slave state. But he pretends China didn't invade.
He's clearly a tankie. I wonder if lemmy.zip is just as bad as lemmygrad or lemmy.ml.
I know why I went to kbin though. I just have no desire to directly support those developers.
Lmao I wouldn't go that far. But we can't all see eye-to-eye ig unfortunately.
Again, the popular Tibetan revolutionary party fought the feudal rule and welcomed Chinese intervention; their views were in line with the rest of China, and the autonomous nature of the region while being part of China reflects that.
Not even comparable. There were no popular pro-US movements fighting Saddam's rule, and Iraq was destabilized in the first place because of US sanctions, not Saddam's decisions unlike the feudalism in Tibet. This was purely a strategic invasion to set up military bases and secure oil and resources by making up false claims of WMDs.
If they were popular, they wouldn't have needed China to invade. China was supporting them just like the US supported revolutionaries that overthrew their governments.
The Kurds.
Their are no us military bases in Iraq and all the oil money goes to Iraq.
Why wouldn't commoners in a feudal slave state not want help from a nearby government whose views match their own?
The US overthrew democratically elected popular governments, like Mosaddegh's in Iran, or Salvador Allende's in Iraq, replacing the latter with a military dictatorship, because their policies benefitted their own countries instead of the US.
...What? There are still military bases in Iraq even now, and the economic dependence on the US that Iraq is now in is exactly what the US wanted/wants. ExxonMobil, Chevron etc. extracting oil for cheap from a war-torn country that doesn't have a choice; even CNN admits it.
Yes many wanted it. But if it was popular, Chinese invasion would not have been necessary. Nor would 1.2 million Tibetans need to have been killed.
There are 2500 US troops in Iraq today compared to 300,000 Chinese troops in Tibet today. The US did not annex Iraq or the other countries you mentioned.
Iraq Balks at Chinese control of their oil:
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/iraq-balks-greater-chinese-control-its-oilfields-2022-05-17/
So are you saying that China didn't abduct a child in an attempt to exterminate Tibetan culture? Surely there is no way to defend such things and this should be a very easy thing to condemn?
Amazing, it only took you 2 comments to land right on genocide denial, unprovoked.
You're a tankie, defending other tankies, and tankies aren't communists, nor are you on the left, since you clearly aren't in support of freedom and equality for all, never mind the rest of it, just more of the same bullshit - authoritarians co opting leftist ideas and language to grab power. Tale as old as fucking time..
Jesus christ, you don't seem to realize how much of a fucked up accusation that is to throw around. Even the US State Department, who would love to claim any and all accusations against their geopolitical rivals, says there's no mass killings in China, probably because the US couldn't cause one like they did in 1965 in Indonesia.
Even if it's not intentional, these kinds of thoughtless claims downplay actual mass killings like the one Israel is perpetrating against native Palestinians right now.
Hence why it's important to scrutinize news, sources and claims, and not throw around baseless ones.
I do think we need a democratically elected authority though, or you get corporations and billionaires steering the government to wage wars for their own selfish profit from oil, materials etc. like what’s happening now with Israel. And rising inequality as wealth gathers at the top.
Perhaps a governing system like Cuba's, which is Socialist and has one of the most open democracies in the world. It has an unusually high percentage of women in the government compared to the rest of the world thanks to that; 53.22% now (U.S has 29.0%), and better LGBT rights than the US nowadays. Also free healthcare, and enough free high level education to provide Italy with doctors during the pandemic, despite the ongoing 60 year US embargo.
They're being brainwashed and sterilized, if you don't think that's genocide you're a dumbass and a piece of shit who wants them to die
Also $20 says this person isn't pro palestine or anti zionist, just pro Hamas and pro raping and murdering jews
Very mature of you. Brought alot to the discussion.