UK Politics
General Discussion for politics in the UK.
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Ok, and you're point? You're surprised that a Palestinian is proud of her people fighting back against oppression, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing? No one can blame Palestinians for hating Israel with every fibre in their being. Not after all that Israel has done to them.
You are justifying me calling her hateful.
What I expect from a non-hatful person is to condemn by action, not by side. Adults can handle that complexity.
Everything Israel does in the West Bank is wrong. The 7th of October attack lead by Hamas from Gaza is wrong.
If you cheer for an act of evil, if it makes you feel joy, you are evil, you are hateful.
You're little "both sides did wrong" rhetoric is pretty hollow considering you belittled her views as simply being "a hateful bitch". Any person who actually believed what you said you believe would have said something like "I don't think she should be saying she's proud of something like Oct 7th but she should be able to speak in defence of her people and condemn whats being doing to them". You don't call someone a hateful bitch simply because she is happy that her people are finally fighting back from decades of oppression.
The people of Gaza were not fucked by Israel. They were fucked by history. Did Israel add to the fire? Yes, did it cause it? No.
Murdering random people in their house is not fighting for freedom.
Kicking Hamas out is fighting for freedom.
I'll call the same to a Jewish person that will show happiness to the current happening in Germany. Because I met such people, both "Palestinians" (that never lived there) and "German" Jews (that never lived there). Both had shallow world view that had just enough depth to spew hate. Not even one bit deeper.
I didn't call her a bitch, cus that word works only toward women, and that is wrong.
You said "hateful retard", I'll correct my comment. Still the same logic applies.
No they were definitely fucked by Israel. Saying they were fucked by history is a pretty pathetic attempt to have Israel absolved of all its sins.
B'TSelem Report with quick Explainer
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a 'modern' way to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' of Europe.
Since at least the 1860's, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it's backing of the movement in order to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That's when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be 'Transferred' to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets 'Transferred' to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
- The Transfer Committee, and the JNF Ethnic Cleansing, which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate before the Nakba
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Historian Works on the History
-
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
-
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
-
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
-
The Hundred Years' War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
-
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
-
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
-
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
-
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
-
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
She also said: “And everyone is, we are both in fear, but also in fear of what, how Israel will retaliate and how we’ve seen it retaliate overnight, and the missiles that it’s launched and the attacks, but also we are full of pride. We are really, really full of joy of what happened.”
Sorry what? Full of joy of what happening? The October 7th attacks?
Why would that bring you joy?
Abu Qamar, who led the Friends of Palestine society at the University of Manchester, said she was misinterpreted and that she was seeking to support Palestinian resistance to occupation and does not condone the use of violence against civilians, nor has she expressed support for Hamas.
The tribunal said the Home Office decision was a “disproportionate interference with her protected right to free speech” under the European convention on human rights. It found that her statements could not be taken as support for Hamas or the Hamas-led attacks on 7 October.
The judgment also said Abu Qamar was “not an extremist”, and said her references to Israel as an “apartheid” state were consistent with views expressed by human rights organisations. It added that her language of “actively resisting” and “broke free” would be recognised by informed observers as relating to lawful acts of Palestinian resistance.
Why are you a staunch defender of a genocidal war mongering state. Isreal is a rabid dog, a pit bull ragdolling children.
said she was misinterpreted and that she was seeking to support Palestinian resistance to occupation and does not condone the use of violence against civilians
"we are full of pride. We are really, really full of joy of what happened."
I'm not really sure what she meant then if she's being mis-interpretted. What happened was violence against civilians and they're apparently full of pride and joy over it?
war mongering state.
Lol. Remind me what the trigger was for this current conflict?
Also, the reference to Israel being an "apartheid state" is the most ludicrous statement and anyone who expressed it can be safely ignored.
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is well documented. The genocide and apartheid labels are well founded with ample evidence.
B'TSelem Report with quick Explainer
You are completely wrong about the history of the conflict. You are also conflating Zionism with Judaism, which are 2 very different things. Israel has never represented all Jewish people and never will, nor are it's actions done to benefit all Jewish people. The conflation is itself antisemitic. Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized (see 29:01) by Zionism during its history.
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a 'modern' way to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' of Europe.
Since at least the 1860's, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it's backing of the movement in order to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That's when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be 'Transferred' to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets 'Transferred' to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
- The Transfer Committee, and the JNF Ethnic Cleansing, which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate before the Nakba
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Historian Works on the History
-
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
-
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
-
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
-
The Hundred Years' War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
-
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
-
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
-
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
-
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
-
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
Also, the reference to Israel being an "apartheid state" is the most ludicrous statement and anyone who expressed it can be safely ignored.
Well I'd love to hear the argument that tries to back this statement up.
I'm still waiting for evidence of this supposed "apartheid" that people keep going on about.
Before October 7th, Palestinians would regularly be welcomed across the border to live and work in Israel if they so wished. Just that simple fact blows the "apartheid" or "prison state" arguments out.
Like genocide, oppression is another thing Israel aren't very good at.
I'm still waiting for evidence of this supposed "apartheid" that people keep going on about.
It has been evidenced and been in discourse widely and long enough to have its own wikipedia entry. Human rights organizations like Amnesty International have definitely made the case. What evidence are you waiting for?
welcomed across the border
In a non-apartheid state, you wouldn't have to ask and there wouldn't be a border based on your religion. They literally control their movement between zones, and getting permits takes months. It's text book apartheid.
Just look up the marriage laws in Israel.
*Edit because I was being rude.
The border isn't based on religion. Gaza strip is not part of Israel.
The reason it's 99% Muslims is because they murdered everyone else.
If you want to cross between countries you have to go through a border check. Like I can't just go visit the USA without getting visa first.
Although I think Palestine should be an independant country, if it was not part of the apartheid state of israel, they would have full control over their own borders.
It is not the same as a border check specifically since it's part of the same country, hence why Israel is an apartheid state.
You both are really close to understanding the problem here, you just have to dig a bit deeper.
Read this whole article, and actually read it for real, don't skim it and pretend. It's insane to compare it to any kind of international border because it simply isn't.
Gaza strip was part of Egypt till the six days war. Egypt refused to take it back. Israel refused to pass law expending their border to include Gaza strip and in 2005 made it illegal for their citizens be stay there.
What in this chain of events makes you think they are the same country?
Despite the Israeli disengagement, Gaza is still considered occupied by Israel under international law.[20][21] The current blockade prevents people and goods from freely entering or leaving the territory, leading to Gaza often being called an "open-air prison".[22][23] The UN, as well as at least 19 human-rights organizations, have urged Israel to lift the blockade.[24] Israel has justified its blockade on the strip with wanting to stop flow of arms, but Palestinians and rights groups say it amounts to collective punishment and exacerbates dire living conditions. Prior to the Israel–Hamas war, Hamas had said that it did not want a military escalation in Gaza partially to prevent exacerbating the humanitarian crisis after the 2021 conflict.[25] A tightened blockade since the start of the Israel–Hamas war has contributed to an ongoing famine.
Having administration privileges while being blockaded is different then being an actual independant country. They couldn't even build ports or access to most of their waters for fishing.
None of this is defendable. Take a hard look at the behavior you are making excuses for. Israel seriously sucks.
Israel left Gaza in 2005, and placed no blockade. Hamas to power in 2007 and broke all past agreements with Israel and started to launch rockets into Israel. This lead to the blockade.
The civilian population is no shield against a blockade.
If you started to fire your gun on my home at random hours I would have locked your door from the outside and set your home on fire with, or without, your family inside. This is common sense.
Hamas to power in 2007 and broke all past agreements with Israel and started to launch rockets into Israel. This lead to the blockade.
Hamas seized power after a civil war, brought on by an attempted coup by the PA backed by the US and Israel. This attempted coup led to the Hamas attacks on Israel. They did not randomly break all agreements and started shooting rockets.
Hamas was always deeply unhappy with the Israeli presence, but they hadn't become really openly violent before that point.
If you started to fire your gun on my home at random hours I would have locked your door from the outside and set your home on fire with, or without, your family inside. This is common sense.
What the fuck is this insane statement. Call the police?
Hamas seized power after a civil war, brought on by an attempted coup by the PA backed by the US and Israel. This attempted coup led to the Hamas attacks on Israel. They did not randomly break all agreements and started shooting rockets.
Hamas was always deeply unhappy with the Israeli presence, but they hadn't become really openly violent before that point.
Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews. They showed previously to 2006 that those are not empty words. In 2006, after the elections, they refused to respect previews agreements Israel made with the PA and then they dug a tunnel into Israel and kidnapped an Israeli soldier.
All the while not paying salaries to the PA defence forces and keeping a private military body.
There was no coup, no one wanted to continue working with them after that. So the president of the PA replaced the prime minister.
What the fuck is this insane statement. Call the police?
There is no police for international matters.
"In an April 2008 article in Vanity Fair magazine, the journalist David Rose published confidential documents, apparently originating from the US State Department, which would prove that the United States collaborated with the PNA and Israel to attempt the violent overthrow of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, and that Hamas pre-empted the coup." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)#:~:text=In%20an%20April,empted%20the%20coup.
You have some reading to do.
There is no police for international matters.
There is, it's called a UN Peacekeeping Force.
You are justifying an apartheid state, none of what you are saying is disproving the fact that Israel is one.
The civilian population is no shield against a blockade.
The civilian population shouldn't have to deal with a blockade, indiscriminate bombing, apartheid or genocide.
That's the point. This isn't taking care of business or self defense, it's ethnic cleansing.
You are mixing the west bank and Gaza 🤦♂️
There is no apartheid in Gaza, as no part of Gaza is under Israeli management. Israel placed a blockade on Gaza from the sea (and not from Egypt) because Hamas was firing rockets (indiscriminately BTW) into it civilian population.
There is an apartheid in the West Bank with the Jewish variation of Nazim running the show. That should stop. But that happens in the West Bank, where less than 6% of Israeli live.
The 7th of October attack was imitated from Gaza, by Hamas, which see both Israel and Fatah as enemies (Hamas throw Fatah people off roof tops in 2007, that how they got into power).
You are justifying an islamfascist body asymmetrical war on a neighboring country. By mixing geogrphy.
I'm not sure if you are troll, or mentally retarded.
Despite the Israeli disengagement, Gaza is still considered occupied by Israel under international law.
Open air prison, apartheid and genocide. Go shill for netanyahu somewhere else.
Fuck Netanyahu, fuck his Nazi government, fuck Hamas, fuck every Hamas supporter, fuck every person that cheered on the 7th of October, fuck every person that went to burn houses in the west bank, and fuck you, for spreading hate and thinking (you are bad at that part) that a highly complex conflict that goes back hundreds of years is one sided.
hey, they never said it was one-sided. the comments above were merely refusing to acknowledge israel as an apartheid state… it can both be true that israel is an apartheid state committing genocide, AND that hamas launched indiscriminate rockets into israel and both those things can be indefensible
In a non-apartheid state, you wouldn't have to ask and there wouldn't be a border based on your religion. They literally control their movement between zones, and getting permits takes months. It's text book apartheid.
Have you ever tried living and working in another country before? Because this is literally what you have to do everywhere.
You mean the event which Israel knew about and let happen, coming from a group they actively fund which was born out of their own constant oppression?
In any case, genocide is never a valid response. And the disproportionate amount of violence, bombing and innocent deaths speak loud as to just how rapid the dog is. Isreal also has a long history of attacking it's neighbors in times of piece.
Apartheid refers to the implementation and maintenance of a system of legalized racial segregation in which one racial group is deprived of political and civil rights. (From Cornell law)
How does this not apply?
Remind me what the trigger was for this current conflict?
Zionist violence in the 1880s primarily harassing Jews that lived in the regions n continuously for the last 4k years.
To your second point, Israel is an apartheid state. There's no way around that title.
Why comments critical of people being happy at mass murder are down voted here?
Because supporting terrorists is cool now.
It was also cool in Iran, that how they got stuck with the current regiment. Stupid kids.