this post was submitted on 22 Aug 2024

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I don't hate Body Type replacing Gender, I hate laziness (lemm.ee)

submitted 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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This is a bit of a rant, but please try to stick with me through the whole thing

So recently OSRS (Old School Runescape) has joined a list of games that have replaced "Male or Female" with "Body Type A or Body Type B" with you selecting your pronouns secondary.

And it made me furious, but I had to sit down and ask why such a small meaningless thing that I only see during the character creator pisses me off. After all, isn't this giving a seat at the table for Gender Non-Conforming/Non-Binary individuals?

So I tried thinking about this issue from the perspective of a Non-Binary individual. See I myself am female (Transgender MTF for what it's worth), so the only thing I'm ever going to pick is the female option unless I'm doing a challenge run where I try to roleplay Guybrush Threepywood (Mighty Pirate!) while playing Fallout 3...

That's when I realized why I absolutely hate Body Type A/Body Type B

This is not a solution to a problem, this is highlighting the issue.

As a woman, I look at "Body Type A or Body Type B" and think "Well, I'm a woman, not a Body Type B, and isn't it kinda misogynistic that the secondary option is the female one? Like A+ for Men, B- for Women?"

As someone is very much not cisgender, I look at it and go "Well, isn't every FTM going to pick Body Type A with male pronouns while MTFs like myself go with Body Type B with female pronouns? Who outside of a Far Right Troll trying and failing to be funny is gonna pick the buff bearded dude and select the she/her pronouns?"

It was only when I went "Let's pretend I don't exist in a male/female binary and see how I feel about it." that I realized why I absolutely DESPISE Body Type A/Body Type B

Because when I look at it from that angle, I realize that if I am a non-binary individual, my options are to look like an overly buff dude but occasionally NPCs will refer to me as a They/Them, or like an overly curvy chick who again sometimes gets called They/Them....

That's when I realized why Body Type A/Body Type B doesn't do it for me.

Games that do this aren't being progressive or inclusive, they're changing the color of the cup that my drink comes in and pretending it's an entirely new beverage.

I realized that if the choices in Body Type were something like

A - Buff Dude

B - Slim Dude

C - Fat Dude

D - Skinny Androgynous Individual who doesn't need a bra/binder

E - Fat Androgynous Individual who doesn't need a bra/binder

F - Skinny Androgynous Individual who requires bra/binder

G - Fat Androgynous Individual who requires bra/binder

I - Curvy Chick

J - Buff Chick

K - Fat Chick

L - Slim Chick

Maybe have also an option for a big buff masculine dude who has big tits, because that's just how he rolls, I dunno just thinking aloud here....

My point is that gaming could abandon "A/B" in favor of something more like an actual spectrum of Height, Weight, and Gender Presentation instead of just awkwardly renaming the binary? I wouldn't get so up in arms about gender replacing body type.

I don't know what more I have to say on this. I guess it's just a revelation I had about something in gaming that bothers me..

So, wider gaming community. What do you think? Am I onto something or is this all crazy talk?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago

As a woman, I look at "Body Type A or Body Type B" and think "Well, I'm a woman, not a Body Type B, and isn't it kinda misogynistic that the secondary option is the female one? Like A+ for Men, B- for Women?"

This really pissed me off, I have to say. Why are you calling the "secondary" option "the female one"? To me that seems a bit presumptuous.

If I have body type B with he/him pronouns, are you saying something about my body? Is it too "feminine" for you?

Honestly, you seem to be looking for something to complain about. The developers have taken an extra step to try to be accommodating and inclusive and your complaining about the order the choices are listed in... Smh

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago

A good option that I think could work could be "fat distribution", instead of body type.

Selecting chest, abdomen and/or legs would be great for binary and non-binary people depending or their presentation.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

While I agree having more options is always a better thing, I really can't see body type A and B with pronouns choosing anything other than more inclusive, a good thing, and not something that deserves getting up in arms about.

I don't really see how it could be seen as not more inclusive. Sure it's not more inclusive than having full blown sliders that let you change every bit of a character's body, but it's adding more pronouns and not forcing those pronouns on a certain body type. If we look at number of options, it is more than the previous "male and female" options. Thus including a broader set of people

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

My issue is how half-assed the measure is. What's the point of letting me pick between "He/Him" and "She/Her", if it's going on a character that looks like a stereotypical brodude or a model in a fashion magazine? Is it really doing anyone any favors?

Would anyone in good faith, with only two options "Stereotypical Brodude or Fashion Magazine Cover Girl", is going to play the former with she/her or the latter with he/him? If there was more variety or perhaps something like Cyberpunk 2077 or Baldur's Gate 3 where you can have a masculine build with feminine features or vice versa, I could see the point.. but for most games that are only going to give you the most common denominator as your only two options?

It just feels like throwing a coat of paint to make it look like the studio cares about making their product more accessible, when really it's just trying to check a box to appease HR.

It's a step in the right direction, but it's so small that it's insulting to everyone involved.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Would anyone in good faith, with only two options "Stereotypical Brodude or Fashion Magazine Cover Girl", is going to play the former with she/her or the latter with he/him?

I think so. Why not? There are as many valid genders and identities as there are people in the world. Who am I to judge what people want to be referred as? Also even if there wasn't people like that, I can almost guarantee there are people who would want to put a "they/them" to those body types, which seems to be the main point of this body type trend.

I don't see it as a bad faith thing to be like "hey, we should include the ability for NB people to have their preferred pronouns"

Again, I agree that having more options would be better, but why does perfect have to be the enemy of good?

Edit: I also want to say that NB does not equal androgenous. Sure many NB people may desire or have an androgenous look. But I also know people who like to look and be feminine but are still NB, and the other way around

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The reason why perfect is an enemy of good in this particular circumstance because the message it gives off now is "We care about buzzwords", with just a little more effort, it could be "We care about inclusion."

As it stands now, I'm just left rolling my eyes because game studios see me as not a woman, but as "Body Type B", but if we had some more androgynous options alongside itl, it'd come across more.. "Oh I CAN have a feminine build if I WANT to."

It's that little bit that goes a long way.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I guess I just really don't see it that way. Man and woman and "she/her" and "he/him" are so much more than the way a body looks. Like someone could be the most traditionally culturally masculine looking person and go by she/her. That's valid, that's fine.

I don't see it as the studio not seeing you as a woman. I am somewhat confused by that statement. Like you get the ability to choose she /her with a couple body options. The she / her is the woman here no? They recognize it as a thing. You can look however. I mean fuck I certainly don't have a body type B, but I'm still a woman

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Thing is I definitely don't look like the "Type B", but my other option is "Type A", which is something so blatantly masculine in every way that it would be insulting for me to represented as such, and I guarantee any other trans woman would feel that same in that scenario.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

@HawlSera @chloyster I mean, I absolutely know people who use she/her but present very masc, and vise-versa. They may be relatively uncommon, but so are trans people in general and we're still worth representing. Not to mention non-binary people who have relatively binary gender presentation. Your experience is absolutely not universal.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I am a tomboy, I present very masc, and it does annoy me when as a consequence people mistake me for a guy despite the fact that I obviously have breasts... But that is what it is...

But what I'm getting at is most Body Type A options don't allow me to play a masc-presenting woman, but a masc-presenting man as in "Someone who looks like Leonidas on Steroids". If Body Type A regularly allowed you to play as a masc-presenting woman I'd see your point.

The option to play someone like Zarya rarely if ever exists, whereas the option to play as someone who looks like Kratos is overwhelmingly what Body A refers to.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago

@HawlSera I do recognize that tomboys, buff women, etc are worth representing, (and we should push for their inclusion) but that's not what I'm talking about - I mean people who look like "men" but use pronouns other than he/him.