this post was submitted on 06 Jun 2024
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submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
 

edit: this is now closed future comments won't be counted

I keep seeing this instance is overrun with tankies so hey, lets do an informal survey like I've seen on hexbear

respond with YES or NO in the first line of your comment and i'll tally everything in a couple of days, lets say I'll try and collect everything on the sunday the 9th (10+gmt sorry)

not sure thisll work, be nice, have fun

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[–] [email protected] 44 points 5 months ago (6 children)

no. I'm probably a communist but authoritarianism can fucking shove it

[–] [email protected] 16 points 5 months ago (5 children)

Fredrich Engels, 1872: On authority

Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is. It is the act by which one part of the population imposes its will on the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannons β€” by the most authoritarian means possible; and the victors, if they do not want to have fought in vain, must maintain this rule by means of the terror which their arms inspire in the reactionaries. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if the communards had not used the authority of the armed people against the bourgeoisie? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach them for not having used it enough?

Therefore, we must conclude one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don’t know what they’re talking about, in which case they are only sowing confusion; or they do know, in which case they are betraying the proletarian movement. In either case, they serve reaction.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 5 months ago

Found the tankie! ☝️

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Tankie is a floating signifier. If you ask twenty liberals what a tankie is you’ll get

  1. Twenty different answers, and
  2. Several people upset at being called a liberal because they don’t have even a Wikipedia-level understanding of liberalism or socialism.
[–] [email protected] 16 points 5 months ago

100 percent agreed. They'll group anything too far left of them under the same name. Don't care anymore. If they want to whine then fuck it, I'll wear the term.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 5 months ago

I'm not from this instance, so probably not totally relevant to this poll, that said

NO, I'm not a tankie.

I think, however, it's worth considering that a lot of people that could be considered tankies probably wouldn't apply the term to themselves, and that could skew the results of your poll. First of all, tankie is sort of a pejorative term, and many wouldn't want to apply it to themselves for that reason alone. Secondly a lot of people just may not consider themselves to be a tankie, and genuinely do not recognize their own tankieness.

I don't think I'm the guy to come up with a definitive checklist of what does or does not make someone a tankie, but for the sake of getting the conversation going (and feel free to disagree with me here, I welcome the discussion) I think two of the biggest hallmarks of being a tankie are

  1. Communism- not all communists are tankies, but all tankies at least claim to subscribe to some sort of communist ideology.

  2. Authoritarianism- tankies either are authoritarians themselves, or are willing to support or overlook authoritarians as long as they see them as being in some way opposed to "the west"/capitalism/etc.

I think the authoritarianism aspect is going to trip some people up trying to answer this truthfully. A lot of authoritarians probably wouldn't consider themselves authoritarians, most people like to think they're standing for freedom, justice, liberty, equality, etc. even if their actual actions tell another story. Don't get me wrong, there are people out there who are openly authoritarian and proud of it, but a lot of authoritarians are a little brainwashed to the point they've lost sight of what they're actually supporting (take a look at the MAGA crowd, they think they're about free speech and anti-censorship but want to keep books they don't like out of libraries, they think they're about small government but want to regulate what kind of medical care you can get, they think they stand for law and order but also proudly proclaim that they are all domestic terrorists and have a convicted felon as their poster boy)

And politics are messy, full of moral grey areas and times where you have to choose between the lesser of two evils, make uncomfortable alliances, difficult choices, and kick some cans further down the road to deal with later while you tackle the current crisis. It's not always easy or feasible to draw a crisp line in the sand and say "we will not ally with/support/turn a blind eye to these authoritarian regimes," sometimes you have to play a little bit of the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" game if you want to actually make any progress against that enemy, or you may have to prioritize and deal with something else before you deal with them. There is a whole lot of grey area to explore about when, why, how, how long, and how much you can support or ignore them before you're advancing their cause as much or more than your own.

I think there's probably some tankies who have been taken for a ride on the propaganda wagon and don't truly realize how authoritarian they are, and there's others who have justified it, thinking that they're only going to be/support authoritarians temporarily to achieve a specific goal and will pivot away from that later, but have gone too far or keep moving the goalposts.

Couple last thoughts from me.

There can always be bad actors who are falsely claiming to be (or not to be) tankies for their own purposes. Not really much you can do about that.

Personally, a lot of the criticism I've seen about tankies here has been directed towards the mods and admins, not necessarily the rank average users.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (18 children)

What's the definition of tankie ?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago

It originally meant someone who supported the USSR's intervention in the 1956 Hungarian revolution. Now it means whatever the labeler wants it to mean, usually as a means of punching left.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 5 months ago (1 children)

No. I'm a non-tendency leftist. But I disagree with tankies being labelled as "fascists". They're not. They're just Marxist-Leninists/Stalinists and I find their views pretty consistent with orthodox ML-ism.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago

I agree with this. I see a lot of people erroneously label tankies "fascist," but fascism is an entirely distinct ideology with different end goals.

I also wouldn't call myself a tankie, although I've received some nasty DMs calling me one, which is somewhat humorous to me since I identify most with anarchism. I feel like some people think a tankie is defined as "anyone to the left of Ronald Reagan."

[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago

Anarchist. I look forward to being kill by tankies moments after the revolution.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

yes

but no in the way you mean

[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago (2 children)
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[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (9 children)

YES

They would have burned me as a heretic in the middle ages.

  • Carl Jung

Just like calling someone a "witch" or heretic in the middle ages, a "barbarian", or "savage", or "commie" or "pinko" in the 20th century, these terms are less about the actual meaning, and more about a demonization, scapegoating, or a power relation between the dominant class, and a group they seek to malign and rally their people around.

Creating a useful enemy promotes group bonding, unity, a sense of strengthened identity, and self worth.

"Tankie" had a meaning that generally referred to non-pacifist leftists (or those that agreed with using violence to defend socialist projects), but now it just means, "any leftist I don't like".

It functions in the exact same way that "commie" did in the the McCarthy era, as a xenophobic and western-supremacist scapegoating of socialist countries, and an internal purging of the working-class communist movement.

It's additionally useful because it deters people from reading or engaging with the worldwide communist / socialist movement.

If someone uses this term, this is what they're doing without realizing it:

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago (2 children)

My only regret in that photo is not seeing Bhagat Singh, because him and his Marxist comrades were responsible for liberating India from British Raj. Bhagat seems to be less recognised or celebrated among the poster boy global Marxist figures.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago (3 children)

No

To clear definitions, at least for me"tankies" are a subset of communists, who praises/defends the actions of all/most communist states far more than similar actions from capitalist states. The difference between communists and tankies is a bias in favor of communist states when looking at things like human rights violations. Very few people will self identify as a tankie, since it's hard to see your own bias.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago

Yes, although I personally prefer "central planning enthusiast".

I think we're approaching the point where the word gets taken back by the community it was used to malign, if not there already. "

[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Yes.

The last time I smiled was on August 19th, 1991. I wear a dirty ushanka at all times, do not shave, and only take cold sponge baths because hot running water is bourgeoisie decadence. Every day at exactly noon I have the same meal of an expired Maoist MRE I store in a pit covered in old issues of a revolutionary newspaper. I sleep in a bed made of flags from every failed revolution so that they are never forgotten. In the evenings I stare at a picture of vodka by candlelight, but I do not allow myself to drink because there is nothing to celebrate. Every local org has banned me after I attempted to split it by assassinating the leadership. There is no plumbing in my house I shit in a brass bucket with a picture of Gonzalo and Deng french kissing in the bottom of it. My house is actually an overturned T34 in an abandoned junkyard in Wisconsin. I have a single friend in this world and it is a tapeworm named Bordiga that I met after ingesting spoiled borscht on 9/11 in the ruins of building 7 (I blew it up after finding that a nominally leftist NGO inside of it wasn’t sufficiently anti-imperialist, the attacks on the world trade center were a perfect revolutionary moment for me to enact direct praxis against liberalism). My source of income is various MLM schemes in the former soviet bloc that have been running for so long no one remembers who I am, they just keep sending money. I have not paid taxes since McGovern lost the Democratic nomination for president and my faith in electoralism died more brutally than my childhood dog after it got into an entire jar of tylenol. I own 29 fully automatic rusted kalashnikovs and three crates of ammunition entirely incompatible with them or any other firearms I own. My double PHD in marxist economics and 18th century Swiss philosophy (required to understand Engels) sits over the fireplace of my home, my fireplace is a salvaged drum from a 1950s washing machine that was recalled for locking children inside of it. I chose that washing machine model on purpose because I am anti-natalist. During the latest BLM protests I firebombed a Nikes outlet in the middle of a peaceful candlelit vigil. William F Buckley and I wrote hatemail to one another for 47 years until my final letter gave him an aneurysm. The only water I drink is from puddles. George Lucas and I dropped acid together during an MKULTRA southern baptist summer camp and he went on to write the movie Willow about our time together. The best way to test whether an electrical wire is live is to drool on it and shrimp salad is racist. You can make an IED out of potassium and the instructions are online thanks to Timothy McVey, who was actually a committed antifascist communist slandered by the deep state as part of operation condor. Every time a liberal files a restraining order against me, I carve a mark into the wall. I am running out of walls. When Amerika finally collapses I will be ready to lead the revolution. I am very smart and people like being around me.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago

I am, just not in the way NATO loving liberals distort claim. Looking at this picture of Germany celebrating Israel genocide, Stalin should not have stopped at Berlin. This country was also caught with 140 members of USA Nazi band Hammerskins in recent years.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago (10 children)

YES

Everybody to the left of biden is considered a tankie nowdays, and I'm proud of being to the left of (and opposed to) genocide enablers.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago (5 children)

I am to the left of Ronald Reagan. A lot of people would classify that as tankie.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago
[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago

NO. Not a fan of the current or former CCP or the former Soviet Union

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago

A ridiculous question. "Tankie" isn't a term anyone self-identifies with, it's mostly a term used by liberals to hurl at anyone to the left of them or anyone who agrees with western foreign policy. The survey results will be as meaningless as the term "tankie" itself.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago (10 children)

Idk. I'm really bad at history and such cause I never pay attention. I used to take everything I saw on the internet at face value, so I decided to slow down on current news. Doesn't help that I like programming and video games a lot, so I don't spend a lot of time thinking about world events.

I just like communities that are tolerant and won't let people bully the lgbt or the disabled. It feels less tiring.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago

Yes.

Just go ask the 196 mods.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Maybe?

What the heck is a tankie, anyways? Every person I have asked has had a different answer, and the vast majority of these definitions don't really fit any major communities on Lemmy, not even Hexbear or Lemmygrad.

I have been called a tankie for numerous reasons, like saying that people should read Marx, to saying the US is a net negative on global stability.

Is being a Marxist sufficient for being a tankie? What about a Marxist-Leninist? Are only Dengists tankies? Is Anarchism the only non-tankie leftist position? I've even seen Anarchists be called tankies over on Lemmy.world, which is currently undergoing Red Scare-era anti-leftist witch hunts (like return2ozma's recent ban for "bad-faith spam").

I think this question needs a definition first. If you ask 10 different people what a "tankie" is, you'll get 11 different answers.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (1 children)

No, I think?

I don't actually know what a "Tankie" is. I tend to try to steer away from labels; I consider them a form of intellectual laziness. People will use them to either try to gain a feeling of belonging by adopting a line of thinking shared by their peers, or they will use them to smear those who they have defined as "others" without consideration of why these "others" might hold opinions that they don't. Labels and label-based thinking lead to tribalism and division.

If you want to know what I think about something, ask with specifics. If you want to convince me of something, present an argument with reason and evidence, and be prepared for me to pick it apart and look for flaws. There is nothing I respect more than somebody who takes a comment I make and considers it, researches it and then comes back to me with a response, or presents me with a perspective that compels me to do the same. I find both depressingly rare.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (1 children)

No.

This isn't my standard instance but I do take a look at it sometimes. I'm definitely very far left leaning, I don't have a label that clearly fits me but I'm probably close enough to anarcho-communism or syndicalism. I live in the UK so it's pretty common for my views to fall further left of the USA.

I'm not particularly good at actually adhering to my own views, infact I don't think I've ever done e anything substantial to bringing my ideals into reality. My dream would be for small federated housing / workers co-ops and unions to get a good handle in my area, and then have the stability to grow.

The crucial reason I'm not a tankie is that I actively oppose top down leadership structures, and I'm actually more against authoritarianism than I am against the right, but I feel that in my country, conservatism and authoritarianism are deeply linked, and a bottom up power structure would do more to actively oppose facism and power consolidation than a far left authoritarian regime.

In short, No. My principles may make me a commie, but I'm an anarchist first.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (1 children)

NO

I like having no boots on my neck, not just changing out what demographic is wearing it

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago
[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago (1 children)

No.

Maybe I'm way off the mark here but... I think the reaction to tankies seems very overblown. No one you could describe as a "tankie" is currently in charge of any of the countries/companies/organizations that are busy destroying the world right now, so I don't super understand why everyone's talking about them like they're at all a priority? The authoritarians that tankies are obsessed with are all either long dead, or totally unaware of their existence.

Maybe some people on the left are just trying to look at future dangers here, like tankies are gonna be "Bolsheviks Part 2", somehow come into power, and then purge all the anarchists or something. But didn't Bolsheviks actually have a lot of power and influence prior to the revolution? Tankies don't seem to.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

why everyone’s talking about them like they’re at all a priority?

Because the red scares and the cold war[1][2] never actually ended, and our government, think tanks, and corporate media still feed us a constant drip of spooky stories.

china under the bedUS scaredspecter

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago (3 children)

I havent figured out yet what a tankie is.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The original definition comes the crushing of the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 to describe communists who supported the crushing of the uprising.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

A lot of people who use that term to describe other tankies seem to be using it the correct way while people who are tankies seem to want to change it to something else because of the implications of that definition.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago

it's what people who are literally demanding that the west sends tanks to the proxy war in Ukraine are calling people who want to end the war right now

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago (2 children)

NO

When the current government is not doing a very good job at maximizing the happiness of its citizens, it's a natural reaction to look for answers from a different type of government. America has some enormous problems with capitalism as it currently operates, and communism offers solutions to many of those problems. The issue is the top-down power structure. Democracy keeps the most power in the hands of the general population, and i will always oppose giving that up. Beyond that, I'm open to any solutions for modern problems, public or private.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (4 children)

If you oppose top-down structures, then why do you support Capitalism over Communism?

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I really recommend asking this question on lemmygrad or hexbear, bc you'll get really good in-depth answers about the nature and differences between what's labelled as "democracy" in capitalist countries, vs the reality of whether citizens of a capitalist dictatorship have anything resembling democracy.

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