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A controversial bill that would require all new cars to be fitted with AM radios looks set to become a law in the near future. Yesterday, Senator Edward Markey (D-Mass) revealed that the "AM Radio for Every Vehicle Act" now has the support of 60 US Senators, as well as 246 co-sponsors in the House of Representatives, making its passage an almost sure thing. Should that happen, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration would be required to ensure that all new cars sold in the US had AM radios at no extra cost.

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[–] [email protected] 128 points 6 months ago (10 children)

Amateur radio operator here, I see some things in this thread that are kinda correct in this case but not technically accurate, and I'd like to provide the actual details:

I see folks asserting that "AM goes farther than FM." This is only accidentally true in this case. The stations that your car radio's AM setting can pick up are transmitting in the Medium Frequency (MF) spectrum, around 500 to 1600 kHz. The wavelengths here are around 200 meters. Radio waves with these wavelengths can refract around the Earth's surface, or at night bounce off the higher layers of the ionosphere, to be heard hundreds or thousands of miles away (respectively).

By contrast, commercial FM broadcasts are done right in the middle of the VHF band, from 88 to 107 MHz in the US. These waves don't refract off the ground or sky, and only travel in straight lines, so you have to be fairly close (within 75 miles depending on the height of the antenna) to hear them.

The terms "AM" and "FM" refer to how the audio signal is encoded on the radio wave; the short answer is Amplitude Modulation gets brighter/dimmer, FM gets redder/bluer. This is very little to do with how far the signal will travel, though it can have ramifications for how easy it is to hear near the edge of range and rising above the noise floor, etc. Both modes are relatively inefficient with power and bandwidth for different reasons; AM is primitive and FM is fancy.

AM radio is kept deliberately simple. Like, pre WWII simple. You can improvise an AM radio receiver with stuff you have lying around your house. I've seen a diode made out of a rusty razor blade and a pencil. It doesn't have the best audio quality, it's a bit of a waste of bandwidth compared to something like Single Sideband (which is cool but beyond the scope of this comment. Ask me about SSB if you want to hear about some cool radio shit) but it's easy to find or make a working AM radio. There's nothing that says you have to use AM on lower frequencies; aviation communication radios are AM (because we started using radios in planes before FM was invented) and they're in the VHF spectrum just above the FM broadcast band and just below the amateur 2 meter band.

FM is fancier, it chews up even more bandwidth depending on the exact implementation and is less power efficient, but it offers the potential for less natural interference, better audio quality, and they even broadcast it in stereo. There's just so narrow in terms of bandwidth you can make FM, which is why you don't find it in use below 10 meters (about 28 MHz); there's just no room for it. FM radios are more complicated, compared to a smart phone or PC they're pretty basic but you're not as likely to successfully improvise one out of shit you find in a tool shed.

In terms of sources for emergency information? I want both and more. AM broadcasting is the very definition of "good old" and relatively few stations can reach a national audience fairly easily, though FM stations typically take a LOT less power to run so I think they'd plausibly be up and running in a partial grid failure, and they're more localized. So for a national emergency I might tune into AM, for a local emergency I'm going to tune into my town's FM station that is 6 miles from my house.

I would also want a WX band radio. For those who aren't familiar, the National Weather Service operates a network of transmitters that broadcast continuous weather information on one of a dozen channels in the 160 MHz range, narrow band FM. If you've had a "weather radio" that's what that is. I know of very few car stereos that are equipped to receive WX band broadcasts and now that I think about it I can't imagine why it hasn't been mandatory for decades.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 6 months ago (1 children)

You can improvise an AM radio receiver with stuff you have lying around your house.

Not only that, it can be powered by the radio signal itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_radio

A crystal radio receiver, also called a crystal set, is a simple radio receiver, popular in the early days of radio. It uses only the power of the received radio signal to produce sound, needing no external power. It is named for its most important component, a crystal detector, originally made from a piece of crystalline mineral such as galena.[1] This component is now called a diode.

Crystal radios are the simplest type of radio receiver[2] and can be made with a few inexpensive parts, such as a wire for an antenna, a coil of wire, a capacitor, a crystal detector, and earphones (because a crystal set has insufficient power for a loudspeaker).[3] However they are passive receivers, while other radios use an amplifier powered by current from a battery or wall outlet to make the radio signal louder. Thus, crystal sets produce rather weak sound and must be listened to with sensitive earphones, and can receive stations only within a limited range of the transmitter.[4]

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 6 months ago (12 children)

This is just making me think that there should be a fundamentals of modern technology class in high school somewhere between a shop and physics class. It’d be a nerd elective but by fuck am I that nerd

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 months ago (2 children)

100% accurate, thanks for the clear write up. Please stick it up on Wikipedia if you can :)

And I'll add a bit about Clear Channel AM (unrelated to the billboard advertising company) - there were originally a handful of said stations that broadcast on a few AM band frequencies that are reserved just for them, so their broadcast range is impressive.

One for example is WOR radio in Chicago.

Fun factoid - you can see on very old AM radios those clear channel frequencies marked by a diamond or similar symbol on the dial.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Tell us about ssb. I also just bought an SDR to get my gas meter readings. Any other cool stuff I should check out?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 6 months ago

Single Sideband is basically AM 2.0, so to talk about it in detail, we have to take a closer look at good old fashioned 19th century AM.

The graphic above is from Wikipedia. The top graph, the "baseband" signal, is the audio, aka the signal coming out of the microphone. It's vaguely what a human voice would look like on a specrograph.

The second graph is what AM looks like. The spike in the middle is called the "carrier." Let's say you're transmitting on 5 MHz with a 10 watt radio. When you push the talk button and then say nothing into the mic, you start broadcasting a 5 MHz wave with a power of 10 watts. A receiver tuned to 5 MHz will hear the background static go away, because you are transmitting a carrier wave that does not modulate much louder than the background noise, you are effectively holding the receiver's speaker still. A signal coming in strong enough to do that we call "full quieting."

The carrier carries no information. Another way to look at these graphs is, picture the sine wave. You may have seen something like this before:

That middle waveform represents AM, notice how there's always some squiggles going through the middle, and it varies toward the top and bottom edges? That's what the upper graphic is representing, that big center spike is always there for that reason.

You may notice that the two lobes to either side are the same shape as the base band signal; or one of them is, the other is a mirror image. We call these sidebands. That's actually where the audio is. In the second graphic, you can see how the top and bottom edges of the AM waveform resemble the baseband signal. Turns out, AM radio uses twice as much bandwidth and more than twice as much power to transmit the usable signal.

So what if we built the transmitter to only transmit one of the two sidebands and suppress the carrier and the other sideband? The same audio information goes over the air, and we take up less room on the radio spectrum to do it. What's more, since we're transmitting less overall "stuff," the radio's power is more focused on the part we do transmit, so a single sideband transmission comes across as "louder" than an equivalent AM transmission.

There are some cool upshots to how SSB works: the first is that the radio uses less power and overall stays cooler. AM (and FM) transmit with their full power all of the time, doesn't matter if you whisper or scream into the microphone you're putting whatever power your amplifier is set to out to the feed line. You might be transmitting silence, but it is very loud silence. SSB doesn't do that; the louder you talk into the mic, the more power goes out the antenna. You aren't constantly transmitting that carrier, so if your mic goes quiet, so does your antenna. Thus, your transmitter gear takes less power, runs cooler, and if you are on some consumable power source like batteries, you can transmit more effective power for longer.

Even cooler than that is the lack of collisions. If you've played with radios much, even listening to music radio stations near the edge of their ranges where you can kind of hear both, you know they interfere with each other. Happens all the time with aviation radios, pilots will transmit on the same frequency at the same time and anyone else listening gets to listen to the psychedelic sounds of two carrier waves interfering with each other. On FM radios usually the louder signal "wins" and the other one just sounds like static or interference under it. SSB doesn't do this.

If two people transmit at the same time on the same frequency on SSB, a third person listening just hears two voices, just like if two people talked at the same time in a room. Hams hold contests to see who can make contact with the most people from the most places, and folks from somewhere rare will end up asking for contacts, everyone else says their callsigns at once like it's the floor of the stock exchange, the one station will pick someone he heard to exchange details with, rinse and repeat. It's 1950's Discord.

Hams also use this technique to send text back and forth extremely efficiently. If you tune your software defined radio to 14.070 MHz (or use one of several people make available online) you might hear what sounds like several strange warbling whistles that come and go. That is PSK31, a digital text mode designed to use an ordinary PC sound card as a modem, and an ordinary SSB transceiver to send the signals across the air. Using software like FLDigi, you can receive and transmit text over the air, and each text transmission is very narrow in bandwidth. Over a dozen can take place in the same space as a normal voice channel, you leave the radio tuned to 14.070 and choose which transmission to listen to by clicking on them in the waterfall, ie choosing what audio frequency to listen to, which only works using SSB because no carrier collisions.

For all its advantages, there are some disadvantages. You cannot transmit "quiet" with SSB the way you can with AM or FM; so the background static, the "noise floor" is always there. Makes it not so nice for listening to music, which is why you basically only ever see it on communication radios. And it also requires a much more complicated transmitter and receiver while achieving the same or slightly worse audio quality than AM. You don't see SSB used much in VHF and above because there's so much room for activities/line of sight limits how far your signal goes so the efficiency advantages of SSB are less important, which is why we tend to use FM (or AM for old shit like airplanes) at wavelengths shorter than 6 meters or so.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago

Man you seem like you'd be awesome to have a drink with and just learn... everything.

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[–] [email protected] 120 points 6 months ago (25 children)

I have a hard time believing that ¼ of all Americans actively listen to AM broadcasts.

That being said, it's indispensable for emergency transmissions, and honestly not that complex a component to enable in modern radio systems.

[–] [email protected] 93 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (11 children)

I grew up with a dad who listened to Rush Limbaugh or some conservative jockey (Mike Savage was quite bonkers, still cannot believe he got hired by MSNBC for about 2 weeks before he said some insane racist shit and got canned) on AM anytime I was ever in the car with him.

He's now a QAnon nut.

I absolutely believe 25% of America listens to AM radio, all the christo fascists and qanoners and magatards on their 3 hour daily commute while they are angry that their kids or ex wives don't talk to them anymore.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 6 months ago

Oh fuck I forgot about that troglodyte. My parents were Limbaugh losers back in the day. Now they're anti-vaxxers.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 6 months ago (3 children)

He’s now a QAnon nut.

I was just thinking that I hadn't heard much about Qanon lately, that maybe it had been fading out. No?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Coincidentally, Q posts dried up when John McAfee died. I wonder why that is

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Sadly, it has not so much died out as gone more underground, splintered, but still proliferates.

Take a gander at owen morgan's telltale youtube channel, he actually covers a good deal of this quite well.

He started off as an Ex JW going over online and real world cults, but as QAnon and Covid and MAGA and then Jan 6th all kind of morphed together, he finally dropped his 'avoid politics' stance as it was utterly impossible to cover anything related to QAnon without getting political.

Basically, 8kun, Truth Social and other less well known sort of youtube alternative sites and alternative social media sites have just become an alternative reality fantasy land for completely delusional conspiracy theorists and outright fascists and nazis.

Then youve also got a ton of shitty MAGA/QAnon flavored 'news' sites (think infowars and breitbart, there are many others) that post absolutely insane nonsense as real, or report on various things leaving out huge details, misrepresenting situations and such.

Their content is then watched and discussed and meme'd and spread on telegram group chats, facebook groups, an increasing number of either online or radio talk show hosts, and by a number of surprisingly popular evangelical preachers, many of whom have basically megachurches as well as their own video streams.

Thats the link that owen came across that kind of led him to be able to figure out how much of the QAnon related mis and disinfo network actually functions, when he discovered a bunch of, again, surprisingly popular evangelical and or charismatic preachers who have decided that basically they are prophets, God literally speaks through them, and Trump is actually the new annointed messiah who is God's chosen President.

They had made a bunch of prophecies about Trump winning 2020, so when he lost, they basically developed the idea that Trump is actually the President of God's annointing... as a cope for losing and being failed prophets.

But this idea has stuck, so now anyone opposing God's President is a demonic force of Satan, blah blah blah.

So... basically QAnon and its derivatives are still going quite strong, they have just largely abandoned platforms that most people know about, or are in largely private groups on more well known means of communications.

I remember seeing one video on one of these youtube alternatives that explained that nuclear weapons are actually fake, dont work, never have, and thus the end of ww2 and the entire cold war and modern day geopolitics are all an elaborate ruse orchestrated to keep us all compliant and afraid... blah blah blah, somehow, its always liberals, democrats, jews and socialists, or secret versions of those, that have been orchestrating a mass conspiracy for a hundred years or something.

We have also had a number of right wing mass shooters, guys that tried to kidnap the governor of Minnesota, and the person who immolated himself outside Trump's trial... all with QAnon related or derived beliefs.

We now also have certain preachers just outright calling for a christian nationalist government, and they all can be connected to this wider movement stemming from QAnon.

Just because Q has not posted in a while doesnt mean the movement that was sparked and coalesced by and around his garbage has died out.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago

I had forgotten about Savage Nation until you mentioned that lunatic. He was crazy before crazy was cool.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I know that back in the early 00s I was traveling cross country and was surprised when I reached the prairies and realized there were way more AM than FM stations, but it's because AM travels much farther even though the fidelity is lower.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 months ago

even though the fidelity is lower.

That's the trade off you make with AM. With just about all wireless transmission techs, really. There seems to be an inverse relationship between range and bandwidth. If you want one, you sacrifice the other. Compared to FM, AM radio leans more towards max range, so the audio quality isn't quite as good, but it goes for miles.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago (2 children)

And thats how you get all the people living in rural America who listen to AM nonsense talk radio.

Its also much, much cheaper in general to start your own AM talk show because of the relatively lower costs compared to FM broadcasting, so any crazy angry idiot can do it.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 6 months ago (2 children)

A lot of EV auto makers have been arguing that the frequencies that some of the electrics in the cars run at interfere with AM radio reception.

Not sure if that's a legitimate argument or they just don't want to pay for extra shielding to block out the noise.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Sounds like they are admitting that their cars violate FCC rules about interferance.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 months ago

If only there were some way to selectively place an antenna.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 6 months ago (3 children)

A lot of sports radio, npr, and conservative radio stations are on AM. I listen to two of those three, though most the stations I listen to have an app or streaming option I use more often then actual radio.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 months ago

Didn't realize like 10% of NPR stations were still am.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I have never encountered an AM NPR station. Where do they have those?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

NPR Station List PDF

Found this list, and they're surprisingly spread out across the county.

(There's 57 of them on the list for anyone that doesn't feel like clicking)

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[–] [email protected] 80 points 6 months ago (2 children)

AM is used for traffic advisory and weather conditions by state dots. A car without an AM radio cannot receive those safety critical broadcasts. An AM radio should be required equipment on every vehicle.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 6 months ago (2 children)

AM radios are also incredibly cheap and simple. It's just one more source for a digital stereo system connected to a fairly simple circuit. I doubt this costs more than $5 per car to implement.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Oh my god, we're gonna have to increase the cost of cars and trucks by at least 8000 dollars to cover this egregious and unfair regulation! - Automotive CEO.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago

Yeah that sounds important

[–] [email protected] 71 points 6 months ago (3 children)

The argument for AM appears to be: the vast majority of adults will receive an emergency broadcast through their cellphone, but what happens if some event has already occurred which disabled large portions of the cellular network (which itself is an obvious target to create havoc)?

I'm fine with using AM as a redundant system for alerts.

Maybe make it more useful though for people in the car? I don't need an AM button I'm never going to touch. Instead have it monitor whatever the emergency broadcast frequencies are automatically, and put something on screen when there is an alert. That would make it a useful "modern" feature as opposed to appearing as a legacy holdover.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

I haven't been following the situation, but it sounds like we haven't even really managed to get terrestrial digital broadcast radio functioning all that well for audio. Things have kinda fragmented into three separate standards (HD Radio in the US, and Digital Audio Broadcasting and Digital Radio Mondiale in Europe).

I think that if it's going to reach the point of mandating inclusion of newer radios, it might be preferable to sit everyone down and come up with some kind of broadly-acceptable single standard before we start baking it into legislation.

Also, if we're gonna have a way of talking to the car's computer remotely, for displaying alerts or whatnot, I'd rather that the protocol be cryptographically-secured from the get-go and that the modules be hardened as best we can. I don't really want to deal with little Jimmy with a $10 USB radio and a laptop dicking up autos at scale.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I disabled the emergency alerts on my phone because my provincial govt was using it like their personal Twitter account, and I can't stand listening to the radio. I guess I'm going to find out when the tsunami just rolls over me.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 months ago

but what happens if some event has already occurred which disabled large portions of the cellular network

As someone who has worked as a technician in both broadcast and cellular, I can absolutely confirm that cellular networks are a lot more fragile than any type of traditional broadcast, and that AM is much more robust than any other form of broadcast.

The transmitters are so much more simple devices, and are much easier to repair with limited resources than FM or television, should the need arise.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Requiring the installation of analog AM radios in automobiles is an unnecessary action that would impact EV range, efficiency and affordability (says the lobbyist)

Oh no the vehicle when driving at speed now uses 10001 watts with radio on instead of 10000 watts. Efficiency and range is ruined.

Also the $60k luxury vehicle is now unaffordable when a $1 am receiver is added in the infotainment

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The problem isn't the energy use nor the cost of the am radio, it's the amount of shielding and other changes that need to be made so the motor and inverter don't interfere with the am signal. On my bolt there's an am radio, there's some 'stations' that I can hear the actual sound of the motor.

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 6 months ago (17 children)

Lol. "Proponents claim it will reduce electric vehicle range". What a fucking joke.

Here's the thing about AM. Especially during any disaster. Damned near everything can get knocked out, power wise within 50 miles of you. At that point, you have no cell service, no data, and no FM radio. But AM? AM operates at a lower/longer frequency band. It can reach over double what FM can, and much further still, at night when it's signal can actually reflect off the ionosphere. Hundreds of miles.

So if shit ever REALLY goes down, AM radio is the most usable form of spreading information across the country. Bombs, freak accidents, mad scientist doomsday device, war, floods, tornados, etc. Anything that knocks a city out on power, AM will give you that information you'll need about where to go and what to look out for.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 6 months ago

The right-wing hate talk radio protection act.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

If they oppose it then I'm generally for it, sounds like AM Radio is used to broadcast safety messages on some roads in the USA so it makes sense. Plus, Radios are run of the mill common so it's not like it's any sort of barrier to entry.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 6 months ago (7 children)

AM's lack of fidelity allows it to have increased range, so it's especially important for emergency situations.

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