this post was submitted on 11 Mar 2024
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[–] [email protected] 136 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

Upon Mr. Dahl’s request, LexisNexis sent him a 258-page “consumer disclosure report,” which it must provide per the Fair Credit Reporting Act.

What it contained stunned him: more than 130 pages detailing each time he or his wife had driven the Bolt over the previous six months. It included the dates of 640 trips, their start and end times, the distance driven and an accounting of any speeding, hard braking or sharp accelerations. The only thing it didn’t have is where they had driven the car.

According to the report, the trip details had been provided by General Motors — the manufacturer of the Chevy Bolt. LexisNexis analyzed that driving data to create a risk score “for insurers to use as one factor of many to create more personalized insurance coverage,” according to a LexisNexis spokesman, Dean Carney. Eight insurance companies had requested information about Mr. Dahl from LexisNexis over the previous month.

“It felt like a betrayal,” Mr. Dahl said. “They’re taking information that I didn’t realize was going to be shared and screwing with our insurance.”

Automakers and data brokers that have partnered to collect detailed driving data from millions of Americans say they have drivers’ permission to do so. But the existence of these partnerships is nearly invisible to drivers, whose consent is obtained in fine print and murky privacy policies that few read.

Especially troubling is that some drivers with vehicles made by G.M. say they were tracked even when they did not turn on the feature — called OnStar Smart Driver — and that their insurance rates went up as a result.

“I don’t know the definition of hard brake. My passenger’s head isn’t hitting the dash,” he said. “Same with acceleration. I’m not peeling out. I’m not sure how the car defines that. I don’t feel I’m driving aggressively or dangerously.”

In response to questions from The New York Times, G.M. confirmed that it shares “select insights” about hard braking, hard accelerating, speeding over 80 miles an hour and drive time of Smart Driver enrollees with LexisNexis and another data broker that works with the insurance industry called Verisk.

Customers turn on Smart Driver, said Ms. Lucich, the G.M. spokeswoman, “at the time of purchase or through their vehicle mobile app.” It is possible that G.M. drivers who insisted they didn’t opt in were unknowingly signed up at the dealership, where salespeople can receive bonuses for successful enrollment of customers in OnStar services, including Smart Driver, according to a company manual.

After LexisNexis and Verisk get data from consumers’ cars, they sell information about how people are driving to insurance companies. To access it, the insurance companies must get consent from the drivers — say, when they go out shopping for car insurance and sign off on boilerplate language that gives insurance companies the right to pull third-party reports.

This summary contains 489 words. I'm neither a bot nor open source, but the bot summary was poo.

As usual, lack of transparency is of key concern. Digital opt-in where other people have physical control of the device and have a profit motivation should not be acceptable.

The quote about what is a hard brake exactly or heavy acceleration is most relevant to my thoughts. Without any context, are you hard braking to avoid dangers? How many hard brakes are acceptable? What is the penalty for hard braking, etc?

My girlfriend tried the OBD reader for her insurance for a bit, and it didn't anything one way or the other to her insurance. For something as random as driving, I dont see who would want to volunteer for it. We know the only direction prices ever move is up, so what does the consumer have to gain?

[–] [email protected] 23 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

consumer disclosure report

A company that I worked for partnered/worked with LN. They are legit. Some of the smartest people I know. They are a very old data warehouse (among many other things) company.

If you would like the same report done: https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/consumer They make it very easy.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Is there anything you can do once you get the report?

This is the kinda thing that I'd probably be happier not knowing if there's nothing I can do about it.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago

I just ordered a report to see what providers I can switch away from or what data I can poison with fake stuff

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago

Depends on which state you are in. If your from California, for example, you can tell them to not keep any data.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 8 months ago (3 children)

It accounts for speeding... How? Cross reference location with local speed limits? Record times above an internally set speed?

[–] [email protected] 24 points 8 months ago (1 children)

New Hondas with front cameras (used for adaptive cruise control and lane departure warnings) will read speed limit signs to display them in the dashboard.

It only parses the number, so if a US car is in Canada it will say the speed limit is 110 mph on the highway. If these GM cars do the same they'd probably think any Canadian car going for a weekend trip to the US did so at prison-worthy speeds.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago

Based on the text of the article (speeding above 80mph)and my experience with an insurance app, it's simply looking for anything over 80mph from calculated GPS speed. It doesn't care about 75 in a 25, just that you don't break the highest possible speed limit

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

It mentioned logging speeds above 80 mph.

That's the highest speed limit I can find for the US, so if you're 80+, it seems you are breaking the law regardless of location.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago (3 children)

You forget that in the States, they say "speed limit is X, so I go X+10", sometimes even 20. It's very common for comments to mention that the flow of traffic is literally 25% faster than the "limit" - it's like culturally so many USians treat the limit as a lower limit. 🫣

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago (3 children)

The posted speed limit plus 5mph is considered normal where I'm from in America. 10 over is asking for a ticket.

I visited Texas once, and was amazed to see most everyone driving 20-30mph over the posted limit, even past the speed traps with no consequences.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago

I'm in Southeast Pennsylvania and they'll whack you for 10 over, but 20-30 over is not rare here. People just don't care about anyone but themselves on the road.

I take all back roads to work now and it's much better even though the drive is twice as long.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

There's one exception to this: the southern leg of Texas Highway 130, which runs east of Interstate 35 between San Antonio and Austin, has an 85mph speed limit.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I used an app version of driving tracking. It gave me an OK discount of around 5-10% just for participation but I didn't like the fear of tripping it's alarms - over 80mph and hard braking. It seemed like it could penalize me for the time of day as well, giving different risk ratings for time of day and what day. Sure, 80mph should be easy enough to handle, but the packs of cars on my commute at the time would cause some interesting events where I'd slowly get up to 75 and still get passed. Come up on someone doing 70 and it's easy to tip into the 80s to make a pass in a faster lane. But the real concern, for me, is that it made me brake softer. I genuinely got concerned I'd rear end someone to not upset the app. I was worried it'd be a subconscious thing that causes a hiccup in my response, making a bad situation worse. Why would I take the penalty for someone who cut me off?

Now, I think I'm a great driver. Lots of experience early on at a dealership, lots of small quick practice sessions for pushing limits to learn and stay honed, re-learning about attentiveness on a motorcycle, and so on. But I don't trust the rest of the people out here on a good day, let alone worrying about their brake nanny. And I get it, hard braking to save yourself (not just being inattentive or aggressive) is still an indicator of crash liklihood, but fuck that.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago

This matches what my girlfriend's experience seemed to be, a weirdness about trying to please the device that has no real awareness of the situation. Second guessing yourself in an emergency isn't the best outcome.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The quote about what is a hard brake exactly or heavy acceleration is most relevant to my thoughts. Without any context, are you hard braking to avoid dangers? How many hard brakes are acceptable? What is the penalty for hard braking, etc?

What happens if your specific vehicle has a sensor somewhat out of spec that keeps errantly triggering harsh braking? You wouldn't know the sensor is activating, you wouldn't know that the information is being fed to your insurance, and you wouldn't know why your insurance is priced as it is. You have no transparency as to what is going on nor any realistic way of fixing the issue (because the vehicle runs fine after all and nobody can define what "harsh braking" even is).

Such a hypothetical situation is unlikely but even several dozen or hundred examples is a bit too much...

Also, since you are never directly informed that you are harshly braking or accelerating, you are unlikely to improve how you drive to avoid those things. If you had a notification that the braking action was a bit too harsh then you could strive to avoid that in the future... not so much if you are never told that in the first place.

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[–] [email protected] 64 points 8 months ago

At this point manufacturers should just be giving me the vehicle for free.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (5 children)

I will never buy a GM vehicle. There were other reasons not to, but this seals the deal.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (5 children)

If you dont want to be digitally tracked, then you better figure out how a carburetor works and buy only old cars for the rest of your life.

cause every modern car has this shit, if not now, then soon. bnot to mention all the over privacy invasions they already actively do

[–] [email protected] 28 points 8 months ago

I think a carburetor is a bit much. There are plenty of fuel injected machines that were built before insane spying became the new normal.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 8 months ago (1 children)

There's about a 20-year window when cars had fuel injection but no tracking. All my cars are from within that window.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Cars have had engine management since the 90s too. I remember my Ford (UK) from 1998 had engine management (including the key based transponder to immobilise the ECU). My current car is around 9 years old and doesn't have any internet connectivity. So, there's a pretty wide range to work with.

But, yeah eventually the cars that don't invade your privacy will become not economically viable to keep running in most cases.

But really, it won't matter in this case. Once more than half the cars on the road are reporting you to big brother insurance co, the insurers will just add a surcharge for vehicles that don't report data on you.

Not to mention all the other increasing routes for personal data to be extracted and sold.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago

But, yeah eventually the cars that don’t invade your privacy will become not economically viable to keep running in most cases.

My strategy is to pick "enthusiast" cars (which works out for me, being a car enthusiast) that will always be worth something to other enthusiasts.

But really, it won’t matter in this case. Once more than half the cars on the road are reporting you to big brother insurance co, the insurers will just add a surcharge for vehicles that don’t report data on you.

Is !angryupvote a thing on Lemmy yet?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Actually you can find many videos on YouTube that show how to disable the OnStar transmitter and you can always wrap those internal antennae in foil.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

How does the game industry deal with this? Pretty sure the auto industry will go the same route.

Yeah there will be a game of cat and mouse with the die hards. Most will just roll with it when it gets too hard.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 8 months ago

Literally EVERY car manufacturer is doing this. Nissan and Kia both explicitly claim access to all data about your sex life they can access. For all we know, they could be reading through your text messages and dating app profiles everytime your phone is connected to the car.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Hate to break it to you, but you'll essentially need to avoid all new cars. For example, Nissan has been collecting data on people fucking in their cars.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago

Needs legislation! When everybody's doing it and people need to get around, there should be privacy by law

[–] [email protected] 25 points 8 months ago (4 children)

I wonder how selling the car impacts the data stream? If you could show that the automaker and LexisNexis aren't properly handling the transition of the car's owner from one to another -- effectively penalizing the original owner for the actions of a subsequent owner -- there might be a legal angle of attack to assert damages.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (10 children)

I'm starting to think I won't ever buy a new car n keep driving older, dumber cars. My current car is an 08, and anything beyond that seems to have been slowly enshittified.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I thought the same about Smart TV's. Now there's no escape. You can only block it's network traffic.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 months ago (2 children)

'Cars = Freedom Crew', where ya at?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago

Working to make the car payment, instead of zipping around on a paid-off bicycle

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago (5 children)

I wonder if there's a way to disable that kind of reporting. Obviously, that's not an acceptable answer to the issue. Sharing of information like that needs to be opt-in with full disclosure and not buried within pages of legalese.

But as a moderately tech savvy person, maybe there's a way to disable it's network connectivity so it can't phone home anymore.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago (2 children)

In my Subaru it's a seperate box under the radio. It intercepts the front speakers and microphone from the radio, so with a custom harness I can bypass it. Obviously that varies by make, model, and trim.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago

Rip out the antenna.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

For now, i assume "all" you have to to is find the car's antennas and disable them. Once "no signal" == "car won't start", you'll have to spoof the antenna signal. I'll keep my '98 car for as long as i can thanks very much.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Welp, time to disable OnStar.....

[–] [email protected] 44 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (10 children)

A lot of car makers use a cellular connection collect this data. You need to disable that too, as well as any apps used to access car features.

Your cell phone provider could likely deliver this same data as well.

The right answer is to make it illegal to collect, except for a small amount stored on-vehicle for crash analysis.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago (2 children)

I agree it should be codified, but have no hope that our fascist leaning lawmakers won't gladly accept $$ from insurance companies and automakers to do what they want to do anyways.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 8 months ago (3 children)

We're headed rapidly toward a social credit system, but run by our corporate overlords instead of government. To quote The Stupendium:

You seem so surprised, what did you expect?

We're thinking outside of that box that you checked

The terms were presented in full to inspect

You scrolled to the end just to get to "Accept"

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (8 children)

The other side of that coin is, if we all read the bullshit extended legalise in every licence/privacy agreement for everything we've ever used, we'd never do anything else but read them.

Besides which, it's not like there's a choice aside from accepting the agreement or not using the thing. Alternatives? All have similar agreements attached.

Basically, this is just a symptom of how much "better" modern life is. But hey, at least we don't need to worry about lions eating us quite so much.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago (4 children)

This seems like such a wretched inevitably. I mean, I guess we're living it with phones, but it seems so unnecessary with cars.

Is there really no market for the same boring car, with minor efficiency tweaks, for, like, ever? I coulda lived with my 95' Accord forever if the parts hadn't been too expensive.

Do es the market really not want that, or do the manufacturers prevent it from happening?

Any Automancer please explain, I'm not car enough to understand.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Selling your data is a new revenue stream for automakers, and as a practical matter, you can't avoid it.

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