I’m not religious and have plenty of issues with organized religion in general but I do support any Christians who aspire to live by the teachings Jesus actually preached. And it’s always good to see someone like this Reverend here, willing to call out conservatives who wear their supposed piety on their sleeves while espousing bigoted, selfish, reprehensible beliefs.
It's so God damned rare these days. Literally the only positive religious group experience I have had my my adult life was the day after the first George Floyd riots, I spent 8 hours on emergency overtime at my dispatch center. The next day I was out in the area and a local mosque decided to go around cleaning up broken glass and boarding up looted stores because "our brothers and sisters are hurting". I wish more people acted that way.
The only pastor from my parents church who had any interest in helping the community ended up getting ousted over a differing interpretation of some Bible verse or other. I had stopped going for almost a decade by then so who knows.
Now they're more interested in remodeling and expanding the church building to make it more gaudy.
You know, like Jesus said when he helped the merchants at the temple maximize their earnings potential, "rule of acquisition #10, bitches!"
the teachings Jesus actually preached
Except that we really don't know what those would have been, and there's a pretty decent likelihood that many of the most popular sayings like "blessed are the poor" and "easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle then a rich man to get into heaven" were additions after Paul and what later becomes the canonical church shift their splinter of the tradition to start collecting money from people.
"Want salvation? Too bad you have all that money - maybe we can help you out with that."
For example, in apocrypha that has a decent chance of also dating to the first century, it depicts a Jesus ridiculing the very idea of prayer, fasting, and charity as necessary for salvation, instead characterizing it as a birthright for all people and those who give money to the church as being like people who take off even their clothes to give to someone else in order to be given what is already theirs.
This is arguably an even more transgressive tradition and version of Jesus than the one Paul offered up, and was more in keeping with the pre-Pauline attitudes about "everything is permissible for me" and the resistance to his rights to profit as an apostle discussed in 1 Corinthians.
There's a significant survivorship bias in modern Christianity - for example, a tradition that changed the prohibition on carrying a purse and collecting money from people when ministering (Luke 22:35-36 - absent in Marcion's version which was likely the earliest copy) was more likely to survive and thrive than ones that had limited fundraising capabilities as originally directed.
So while yes, he may have been all about helping the poor and downtrodden, it's also entirely possible that a lot of it is a load of BS meant to separate fools from their money by an organization claiming to do those things on people's behalf (you'll notice in the Epistles vs gospels that Paul, who is supposedly collecting money for the poor back in Jerusalem, mentions a gift of a nice aromatic in Philippians 4:18, and then in the gospels written later on there's a scene where Jesus is given an expensive aromatic and chastises those who criticize him for accepting it rather than selling it and giving the money to the poor).
Personally, I prefer the nuance in something like saying 95 attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas: "If you have money, don't lend it at interest. Rather, give [it] to someone from whom you won't get it back." There's a bit more nuance in that this addresses not an obligation for everyone including those struggling with money to give to the poor via the church but rather the inherent wisdom of recognizing the diminishing returns on personal wealth for the rich and the value in directly enriching one's environment rather than hoarding a resource you can't take with you (the point of the parable in saying 63 in the same work).
So while I'm inclined to think that a historical Jesus probably was against hoarding wealth stupidly given the overlap between unique extra-cannonical and canonical sentiments, I'm quite wary that the extreme degree of bleeding heart asceticism we see promoted canonically is much more than a sales effort by a parasitic organization that went on to build the Vatican off its back.
Yeah I went through a phase of reading biblical history when I had my faith deconstructed, and you quickly realize how many different Christianities there were. As well as the political context for why these sort of ideas were able to spread in this specific part of the world at that time in history. I think the version of the story told in Jesus Christ Superstar actually does a decent job with the structures of authority and their conflicting interests. To me Jesus was likely a very charismatic "nobody" who gained a following by expressing sentiments that were kind of already floating around, until it caused a problem for the authorities who needed to keep the peace or risk Rome intervening. Whether Jesus actually said what's in the Bible isn't important, we know people thought he said that stuff and that it resonated strongly with many. We can infer things about people at the time based on what they ascribed to Jesus.
WWJD is actually a great moral role of thumb, the problem is that so few self-proclaimed Christians follow his teachings.
To be honest, this is something that really bugs me; people using the Bible for their own benefit. They say, "we love Jesus!" and then go and keep doing exactly what they were doing before. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep ny commandments" (John 14:158), and James said, "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:26, but there's more in James 2:14-26). Yes, they might say that there's too many commandments-- but Jesus also said "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.". That is a summary of every single law/commandment in the entire Bible, all of the others are just more specific instructions on how to do that. All that stuff about turning the other cheek and going the extra mile-- it's not saying to just put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice. It's talking about what people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi did, using oppressors violence and mistreatment against them. The third commandment, "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name." (Exodus 20:7) isn't just talking about saying "ooh mah gawd" when you stub your toe, it's talking about using God's inapropriately or disrespectfully in any way, including for personal gain.
All that stuff about turning the other cheek and going the extra mile-- it’s not saying to just put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice. It’s talking about what people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi did, using oppressors violence and mistreatment against them.
Doesn't it? I think when Jesus said "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." Matthew 5:39 he meant put up with abuse, mistreatment, and injustice - do not resist an evil person and do not retaliate when attacked.
I think when Jesus said "love your enemies [...] Be perfect" Matthew 5:44, 48 he meant love your enemies and be perfect.
I think when Jesus said "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor" Matthew 19:21 he meant sell your possessions and give to the poor.
A lot of supply-side Jesus followers say Jesus supports the troops, and that the eye of the needle the camel needs to go through isn't actually the eye of a needle - but a gate.
I think the above quotes are good things to do, eventho I'm not an ethical enough person to do them. I also think all the supernatural things Jesus is quoted as saying is bullshit, and that it's better to be honest than to repeat a bunch of stupid fairy tales.
The biggest lie the Religious Right repeats is by rejecting that Jesus would be a progressive.
Jesus (at least as depicted by the Bible) advocated nothing about hurting people who were different, and preached tolerance throughout his life.
I wish this ever worked on Christians with political values on the right side of the spectrum. The fact is they refuse to see the contradictions and don't care.
We've tried to use this logic on family and friends in a loving capacity and it essentially never works. They are the Bootstraps for Thee but Not for Me party. Subsidies are only for the rich who deserve it.
"Jesus helps those who help themselves. Pretty sure that includes elementary school kids in poverty." - conservatives
For some of them, I think it's because they feel a thing first, and then reach for justifications second. If you say something that contradicts their feelings, it won't feel true to them and they won't believe you. It doesn't matter how true it is. They're driven by emotion. It is extremely ironic that the right wing is the one that says stuff like "facts don't care about your feelings".
If you want to change minds, you probably need to make them make emotional connections to the thing you're trying to get them to believe.
Belief is also social, so if you want their beliefs to stick you need to get them away from the group that's believing nonsense/hate/whatever, or they'll go right back.
These people would definitely crucify Jesus if he came back
A brown person that advocated for caring for those around you, and fought against greed? Looks like the sinister Jewish cabal are sending the illegal immigrants to take over our country with communism - git em!
They hate him already. There are maggats who seriously believe that Jesus was too "woke" and so disregard the new testament completely.
they'd call him a commie and hate him with passion for sure
The real Christians got persecuted and crucified two thousand years ago, for saying "be kind to one another". The Christians we know today, their antescendents converted when some dude in power said they were now Christian. They didn't become different people.
No, they got persecuted two thousand years ago for challenging the power dynamics of a conservative theocracy dependent on revisionist religious orthodoxy.
Which is very ironic given the embracing of the tradition today by a group hell bent on establishing a conservative theocracy dependent on a revisionist version of that tradition which brought it more in line with said religious orthodoxy.
Evangelists use The Bible as a shield and scripture as a weapon. I like to think actual Christians aren't these people.
Actual Christians will be being persecuted by these people. Whether in the US or overseas.
Of course because they're not strong enough to fight for their beliefs or some other bullshit. I've had someone unironically say Jesus was too soft. They've lost the plot.
Even with removing the Christian aspect from this, it’s pretty heavy and a strong point.
I wonder what their plan is to retell the story in 8-12 years from now when people who were effectively left behind on purpose are of voting age.
We already know, they'll pretend it was the democratic president's fault
Their plan is to have full fascism in place of democracy by then
8-12 years from now when people who were effectively left behind on purpose are of voting age.
The plan is for them to not be able to vote in 8-12 years. They're already wanting to raise the voting age.
Sure has been a trip finding out that I'm the naive one for believing all the things my parents taught me as a kid growing up Christian..
All that "love your neighbor" and "turn the other cheek" stuff went right out the window the second wearing a mask became even the slightest inconvenience. Hard to recognize the people who taught me in Sunday school, now that locking kids up in cages and putting undesirables in camps is part of their media drip.
Sucks a lot.
Every time this shit comes up we have to have the same discussion.
These people aren't shitty because they aren't following Jesus, they are shitty because they have been made credulous by religion, believing whatever is convenient for the scam artist on the pulpit.
This isn't going to get fixed by trying to argue some romantic interpretation of Jesus that you think would be nice. They are stories, made up stories, contradicting stories and lies. You will never find truth in the Bible or any religious text because it's made up bullshit.
We need to help free these people from religious shackles. There have been studies that have shown that as you become less religious you become more compassionate and less judgmental.
OP's argument has to be made. You want to shave off as many of the fools following that twisted ideology as you can, via any argument that rings true. Which means your argument also needs to be made, but I don't think it's going to convince a lot of conservatives or undecided voters. Hell I think pointing out the hypocrisy as OP is doing is more likely to convince them to become atheist, than your argument is.
Removing religion altogether is a long term goal that sounds nice. Not having the world's superpower go fascist is a short-term one that is essential. Turning a fundamentalist christian into a compassionate christian makes the danger go down significantly. And you can get decent traditions of charity and even activism from the compassionate side of christianity.
And on a final note, I've been in atheist circles long enough to see some of them go bad. Like racism, mysogyny, etc. Atheism does not cure all. Religion makes things worse but is not the source of our problems.
What I'm trying to get at, is society's problem run deeper than religion vs atheism, it's just one dimension, and not the most important.
Wherever it's going, step 1 is, if possible, engaging on their own terms with material they have accepted. No one is going to be receptive to just rejecting the belief system they grew up with just because someone said so.
If the scam artist is tapping into the material they were fed growing up and framing what they want in those terms, and your counter point is "well everything you were fed growing up with was stupid", guess who wins?
Ain't no love like Christian hate.
I thought it was ain't no hate like Christian love
Either way.
Razor wire in the water?
What kind of monster would do this?
I am not joking; I am genuinely asking.
Texas and Mexican border. Whole fiasco is happening there right now
Some issues have gotten confused. There were buoys that texas floated in the water. A few drownings went on around them and they were ordered removed. There's some international law there. I'm not sure how much razor wire was in their construction, but it was definitely a safety hazard
The razor wire is another issue, and the ruling for it is really the bare minimum and appears to be misrepresented by the right. Texas had been putting it everywhere for years. This was not an issue for the federal government in most situations. However the federal border patrol has to do their job (regardless of the fact the right pretends they don't to smear political rivals). If they see something on the other side of the razor wire that requires their attention, they need to get to it. To do that they cut the wire to get to the otherside. Texas, not wanting to have to replace the wire everytime, sued to make them stop. The federal government basically argued blocking them was obstructing justice and other official business(including things like rendering medical aid). Courts have found on the federal side. Texas is trying to ignore it. If someone is on Texas' side you can always accuse them of obstructing justice. They kind of are in cases where there is actually justice to be done. In other cases they are just sadistic.
So many christians today are eager to live like old testament Israelites and wish only to put the sword men, women, and children in glorious sacrifice to their bloodthirsty vision of god.
Except all that pesky other stuff like "the worker deserves their wages", and "treat the alien(/immigrant) and poor among you as one of your own".
No, I think they equally abuse both Testaments. Woman, submit to thy husband. ~~Husband, submit to thy wife.~~
Christians don't look up to Jesus anymore.
The real religion of the US is capitalism
All you gotta do is say, “Good night, Jesus. I love you.” BAM, free ticket to heaven.
It would be funny if heaven existed and they’re going on about the border crisis with the mortal realm. “I played the harp for going on 8,000 years. THEY TERKERJERB!!! I don’t see why we don’t make ‘em all wait in hell and apply for asylum! Heaven is for the heavenly. They don’t even speak angel!”
:p
If they were actually religious, I'm sure this tweet would mildly irritate them.
The odd thing to me, is that you can make them aware of it. And they remain completely oblivious to the hypocrisy. An example would be homelessness. When you tell them Jesus wouldn’t allow that, they respond with “they chose that life,” or “that’s just the way things are.” Without ever considering the ramifications.
Political Memes
Welcome to politcal memes!
These are our rules:
Be civil
Jokes are okay, but don’t intentionally harass or disturb any member of our community. Sexism, racism and bigotry are not allowed. Good faith argumentation only. No posts discouraging people to vote or shaming people for voting.
No misinformation
Don’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.
Posts should be memes
Random pictures do not qualify as memes. Relevance to politics is required.
No bots, spam or self-promotion
Follow instance rules, ask for your bot to be allowed on this community.