shouldnt the EMT be the responsible party to say 'no officer, this person does not have that problem'?
i wouldnt trust a cop with...well.. almost anything of mine personally. its outright terrifying they can make this medical decision.
this post was submitted on 02 Dec 2023
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Technically EMS doesn't diagnose. We assess and treat symptoms to keep the patient stable until we can get them to a medical facility. Of course there are things that are blindingly easy to diagnose and generally most doctors won't tell you "you can't diagnose that open femur fracture, that's my job". But officially the line has always been that we don't diagnose so when we are recording and reporting things we will typically say something like "the patient is showing symptoms of XYZ" rather than "the patient has XYZ".
When it comes to dealing with police officially they are the only people that can involuntarily commit someone (at least in my area). And officially EMS has to respect that decision however that doesn't always happen. There used to be a cop in my area that used to try to do that to anyone who "was problematic" and that officer got really used to hearing no from EMS. Other times EMS works with police is when there is a danger on the scene. For example if you're called out for a gunshot wound and it is suspected that the gunman is still there then you don't go in. You stage a block or two away and let the blue canaries clear the place first.
EMTs don't want to stand up to police because police officers like to threaten them if they don't follow what the cops say to do.
As a former firefighter and EMT, the very first rule you apply to any interaction/call/scene is "scene secure scene safe". The idea is to not walk into a dangerous scene and become an additional victim. (Consider walking into a traffic accident, or walking into a live electrical line).
It also applies to violent or dangerous situations. In each case we look to the expert to get us to the scene. For the traffic accident we look for firefighters or other units to block traffic. For electrical, we look for the utility folks.
For potentially violent spaces we look to police. They have the "security" authority.
So this gets ugly when cops flex authority, and in this moment we have no authority. Obviously we have professional candor, as we see these people on calls all week, but if they go hard we can't overrule them.
For potentially violent spaces we look to police.
In other words... you're looking to the people most likely to cause the violence.
Unfortunately yes but there's no one else with that authority on security especially
Well... that's the crux of the problem, isn't it?
Who would you recommend?
You mean you get a choice?
If you do, I'd suggest not trusting a violent institution that was perfectly fascist in nature long before Mussolini coined the term.
Of course... I know you don't. That's the whole point of police, isn't it? They are forced upon us no matter what we think.
Does the policy extend to when they want you to do something medically? You have no say when a cop tells you to inject an air bubble in someone's carotid? I don't believe it.
The cop wouldn't decide something like that no.
They would decide "this person is dangerous" type of stuff
McClain was catatonic and not speaking at that time, but law enforcement officers can be heard on body-worn cameras telling the medics that he was exhibiting “crazy” strength and that he nearly did a push-up with all three officers holding him down at one time.
It's amazing what feats the human body can perform when trying to save its own life. A shame these folks were so determined to kill him. Don't listen to the audio from the bodycam on this one or read a transcript unless you want to weep for the cruel loss of a gentle soul.
nearly did a push-up
Sounds more like: couldn't do a push-up.
Cops are not trained of medical personnel, and have ulterior motives
When someone dies and police are involved the officers should be arrested and held with pay until we know it wasn't police brutality or other foul play on their part
Why are cops in the US making diagnoses?
Cops really are oppressive over there
Theres a damn good reason why historically everyone from backwoods rednecks to civil rights activists fucking hated cops. Hell both groups still do to some degree, sure a good number of boomer and gen x rednecks are boot lickers but silent, millenials, and gen z rednecks tend to still hate em. I shouldnt have to elaborate why civil rights activists still hate cops.
Yep.
Fuck what the Pieces Of Shit Training Board says, why the fuck were paramedics giving someone ketamine?
There was another systemic failure here and this feels like smoke and mirrors.
Ketamine does have valid medical uses, namely pain killing and sedation, it's that in cases such as these it's completely unnecessary
That's my point. There are literally dozens of drugs that would have been more appropriate than ketamine in this situation.
Ketamine is widely considered one of the safest drugs, so safe that only cops could find a way to overdose someone on it.
I didn't say it wasn't safe...
You're confusing the chemical science of things like LD50s of substances, with recommended medical practice by medical bodies such as which specific medicines are appropriate in which medical situations.
Again: there are dozens of medicines that would have been more appropriate than ketamine in this situation.
Why would those other medications be more appropriate. What's the problem with Ketamine in the first place?
This is a question best answered by an actual doctor or pharmacist. My line of reasoning is about established medical procedure, not the pharmacology or psychopharmacology of each possible medicine or substance that could be used in this situation.
Ketamine doesn't carry the risk of respiratory depression and hypotension that other sedatives and pain killers do. No risk that you might have to immediately intubate someone.
Haloperidol is less risky still in terms of respiratory influence, though ketamine is faster acting.
But this doesn't really add anything, nor does it answer my question about why they didn't go with established medical procedure in this case that ended with the unnecessary death of a person, in no small part due to that break with procedure.
Sorry I was only addressing the reasoning behind paramedics being allowed to administer ketamine in the field and not other drugs. And reviewing this case, I don't see any indication for haloperidol either. They should not have drugged this person at all:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Elijah_McClain
But we should have teams of psychiatric professionals who are qualified to administer things like haloperidol responding to emergency calls that are specifically stated to be for psychiatric crises. I don't really want random paramedics in charge of choosing when to administer haloperidol, which can have significant and permanent side effects even after one dose.
Because k-holes fell great!
Good. Slow progress, but progress nonetheless. The more we can prevent made up conditions like "excited delirium" from being used, the more protected we can be from police abuse.