this post was submitted on 10 Nov 2024
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Chronic Illness
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Nah, I'll do you one better. Abolish money, an economy based on mutual aid.
I'm sorry but a system of currency of some sort is kind of a must in the modern world.
I can't reasonably know enough people who I could help do something so that I could get a phone, an e-bike, all the foods that I enjoy, etc etc etc.
"Abolish money" is a sort of naive thing to say, really. Even in Star Trek, they don't really explain it, because people can't even imagine a society really working truly without any currency, because of the problems it eventually leads to. Like even in Star Trek, Picard owns a huge vineyard and has people working there. Why? I'm sure most of the goods are going to be shared without making profit off of them or anything, but still, it just doesn't really make sense. And they've owned that vineyard for centuries.
Honestly just the systems we have, if we take basically the best of all the systems around the world and take the good and leave the bad and assume very little corruption of non-significant levels and we assume that we actually tax the wealthy properly, I think we could have the world looking radically different in a matter of few decades. I don't think it's easy for any humans (including me) to even fathom the effect it would have if people honestly didn't take as much as they wanted, but as much as they needed, and perhaps a little on top.
I know of a couple of very fair bosses here in the Nordics who actually pay their employees very well and while they make a bit more as the owner of the company, not really significantly more. I don't believe even double, let alone triple, whereas usually tens or hundreds of times more than the average worker. Although these aren't large companies I'm talking about.
I'm just saying there's no need to "abolish money". Money is fine, it's just being hoarded away from everyone who actually need it and would actually use it.
How about if we start with "Abolish billionaires" first, we'll see about how realistic it is about the whole "abolish money entirely" later on, yeah?
Tangentially related video:
Putting Dole Up To £1K A Week | Kevin Bridges: A Whole Different Story
Harvest party with a hero of Earth seems pretty rad.
I study the history of money and pre-money economies as a hobby (oh god I'm such a fucking nerd) and you're 100% spot on. Before coins were invented, societies used ingots of metal. Before that, they used shells and beads. The first currency was used about ten thousand years ago (iirc).
And yeah, in the times and places throughout history where there wasn't an available currency, people practiced what was called a "gift economy." It works great on the small scale, and it still pops up in some communities even today. But on the large scale? Moving between cities, regions, and countries? Some form of currency is an absolute must.
The problem is that for anything to be used as currency, whether it's shells or coins, there has to be a critical mass that's the minimum to sustain an economy. That's where the hoarders (aka billionaires) are such a problem. As billionaires suck up currency, governments risk having the available currency fall below the critical mass. So, they make more. Which causes inflation.
So the billionaires really REALLY are the problem.
There was accounting, before there was money, so I've learned.
I found the Orville interesting as a thought experiment since their currency was reputation. Not sure how feasible that is, but nice to try to speculate how you'd have any kind of economy post-scarcity.
Upvotes and lemmy awards?
Ever read Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom?
No, but I really should. I like Doctorow.
It features a similar reputation-based economy.
That's probably the inspiration for The Orville. That show is full of references.
Money will always lead to a desire to hoard it. Money creates that greed and is something that should be abolished. Money simply acts as an unnecessary middle man to the distribution of goods. Money has to be abolished alongside the concept of property. Communal ownership is what would allow money to be done away with. And people would work and contribute because they would get to reap the benefits just as much as anyone else. Thats what mutual aid is. The sharing of resources mutually. I give my goods/services to the community which helps the community, and I get to also reap the benefits of what everyone else puts towards the community. And we have the means to meet everyone's needs now with the technology and productivity we have now.
Not gonna happen until we have Star Trek tech like matter replicators, and have killed all the bastards who first got their hands on them and try to keep them secret to exploit them for 0 cost high profit.
We have the means to meet everyone's needs rn. We don't need some scifi replicator. The only things holding us back is the exploiting class, and people who think a middle man like money is needed. You are holding yourself back. Money is simply a middle-man to the distribution of goods. Through communal ownership of capital and what it produces, you do not need money as people can just take what they need. And people will work and produce because 1. What happens when people don't do the work? It doesnt get done and you don't get the goods, so if you want the goods you better ensure its made. If people refuse to do the work then I guess the good isn't worth making to begin with. And 2. People desire purpose and to be a part of communities, part of that is work. It just might not be the work they are doing currently.
Okay. I need a thing that's only available in limited amounts and other people are of the mind they need it too.
What now?
Increase production to meet demand. Build more infrastucture to increase capacity. If demand isn't being met, do what you have to do to meet demand. If its something urgent, people should discuss how to temporarily ration (in the case of stuff like food) or share (in the case of something reusable like a computer) till they are able to supply enough to meet demand.
It's so simple for you, isn't it, not having to consider reality?
"Just increase production until you make enough, lol what's the issue???"
Let's say there's a natural disaster, or a disease wipes out a crop. Not enough to go around for your avocado salad. "Just increase production."
Honestly this is exactly why I didn't reply in the first place. There's no point in this, you have zero understanding of logistics or basic economy. All you have is a very naive hippie dream.
If a natural disaster hits other communities can aid. We already have that, look at when Haiti was devastated by hurricanes and earth quakes, look at Florida. People send aid to help till they can help themselves. And in the cases where things aren't able to be produced enough for everyone like say cars. There are more economical solutions like the various means of public transportation. I am not suggesting everyone gets the finest things, but that their needs are met one way or another. Let the producers and consumers work together to solve problems, not letting an arbitrary market or corporate stouges decide what peoples needs are and how to meet them
And that is totally going to end up with how it is now.
A subclass of unwanted, uncared about workers that no one gives a single shit about until the tomato is unavilable/too expensive/etc.
Which is not meeting everyones needs.
Its meeting you and yours needs.
Genuinely how? If everyone owns things communally without the use of money as a middleman, how does that result in what we have now?
because labor becomes currency, and currency will always be horded
This would happen very quickly as soon as someone figures out how to bypass security on them (you just know they'll require some sort of janky app) and remotely orders a cocktail of bleach and ammonia.