this post was submitted on 13 May 2024
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Unpopular Opinion

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(Content warning, discussions of SA and misogyny, mods I might mention politics a bit but I hope this can be taken outside the context of politics and understood as a discussion of basic human decency)

We all know how awful Reddit was when a user mentioned their gender. Immediate harassment, DMs, etc. It's probably improved over the years? But still awful.

Until recently, Lemmy was the most progressive and supportive of basic human dignity of communities I had ever followed. I have always known this was a majority male platform, but I have been relatively pleased to see that positive expressions of masculinity have won out.

All of that changed with the recent "bear vs man" debacle. I saw women get shouted down just for expressing their stories of being sexually abused, repeatedly harassed, dogpiled, and brigaded with downvotes. Some of them held their ground, for which I am proud of them, but others I saw driven to delete their entire accounts, presumably not to return.

And I get it. The bear thing is controversial; we can all agree on this. But that should never have resulted in this level of toxicity!

I am hoping by making this post I can kind of bring awareness to this weakness, so that we can learn and grow as a community. We need to hold one another accountable for this, or the gender gap on this site is just going to get worse.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I am a cis male mod of multiple communities here on Lemmy and all I can say is that I try to moderate as fairly and equitably as I can, but I also don't have time to read every single comment on every single post in the communities I moderate, so you have to flag posts you find violate community rules. Every community I moderate has a civility rule, and shouting down or harassing women who are telling personal stories would be against those rules.

But I may not know that it's happening unless it's getting flagged.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You can't moderate women's perspectives getting constantly downvoted while men's get upvoted. I doubt any of the comments OP mentioned actually violate any rules but getting ten comments ignorantly telling you you're wrong whenever you share your perspective tends to make one feel unwelcome even if the comments are all technically civil.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

How exactly are you determining/validating people’s gender identity on an anonymous text based forum?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago

In the case of the bear discourse, most comments self-identified either explicitly or implicitly.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (2 children)

🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻 guess you can't handle a fucking emoji

https://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/02/12/the-privilege-of-politeness/

politeness is a social construct that disenfranchises the rightfully pissed. idk who is moderating here but they are clearly dumb as a box of brix if they think they're helping anything by blocking my comments that are clearly constructive as well as profane

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

If you are not willing to follow the rules of this community clearly outlined in the sidebar, moderation action will be taken as necessary.

Your original comment, which was removed by another moderator, was a very clear attack towards the OC; Do note that attacks directed towards other users are not allowed in this community.

You are free to share your views in this community as long as they adhere to the community and this instance's rules. However, if your views on "civility/politeness" means you are complicit in attacking other users here, you are free to contribute elsewhere on the internet.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

What did I say that was an attack? "fuck you"? is that an attack lmao ? these rules are arbitrarily enforced because I have seen people say that all the time, or say "fuck you" just in more words that they think are clever. the only reason I didn't put that in this post was I just forgot to lol

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

We are volunteers, with full-time jobs. We don't watch all the comments in our communities. We tend to only act on reported infractions. For example, you are reported often for rule violations (rule 2, mostly).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Okay, and can you see how this is messed up? People most often report "incivility" when someone is expressing a minority opinion. 🙄🙄

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago (2 children)

The point is that if you see things, report them. That's how we keep the community civil

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

That is how you keep a community peaceful, not civil.

In order to keep a community civil you have to understand when conflict is needed and also what types of people are usually silenced either by trolls or by selective enforcement of rules or community guidelines.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

My point is that civility rules are oppressive. Allow people to be justifiably upset. The civility rules will always favor majority held opinions. Read the article I linked, do some of your own research. You're upholding a dumbass rule that will inevitably, and has been, inconsistently used.

another source

https://youtu.be/ezQa9MzJiBg?si=fkXKddpsGfuvxN4X

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Well excuse me for trying to be helpful.

Also, when did I say anything about politeness?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You mention the civility rules, excuse me I had to rewrite this damn comment like three times lol

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Yes, mods in most communities expect discussions not to descend into people hurling insults at each other because that turns the community into chaos and also does not make it a safe place for marginalized groups and why you would be against such a policy to the point of being so rude to me, I'm not sure. But if you feel that you need a place where you can be as insulting towards people as you like, may I suggest 4chan?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

How is "may I suggest 4chan", a notoriously transphobic website, directed at someone from the Trans Lemmy, not supposed to be an insult?

How is "fuck you" an insult? It doesn't attack you in any way whatsoever it just shows disrespect. I'm allowed to not respect you. Didn't say anything about you or even call you an asshole.

You're not protecting marginalized groups, you're enforcing a standard of civility that is usually used to tell minorities "shut up, why are you so angry"

If protecting minorities was the goal, the rule would be against racism, sexism, etc... but that's not the rule.

I already explained several times why I'm against the policy but idk I guess you can't read that well? Really the only explanation I have here.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

the rule would be against racism, sexism, etc… but that’s not the rule.

That is stated explicitly in the communities I moderate.

Examples-

World News:

Ten Forward:

Lemmy Shitpost:

I don't know what you are entitled to do in this community in terms of moderation, but you are not entitled to make up your own so-called facts unchallenged.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Okay, if the civility rule is in place to protect minorities as you say, than why would we need a civility rule? That's my point. We already have rules against bigotry.

You totally missed my point 🙄 and then you get all snooty about "facts unchallenged". When really you just continually misunderstand or ignore my very clearly spelled out argument against this dumbass civility rule. Is this civility? You're just ignoring all my points and posting useless screenshots.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Your words:

If protecting minorities was the goal, the rule would be against racism, sexism, etc… but that’s not the rule.

I showed that this was a false claim.

So you can say I missed your point, but your point was based on a false claim. And now you're moving the goalposts.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I said "that's not the rule", not "that's not a rule". As in, that's not the rule you're talking about. You're literally just misunderstanding me, probably deliberately, and ignoring all my points to focus on pedantics! This is why you suck so bad dude!

You're ignoring the topic at hand to focus on something that you misinterpreted. Embarassing for you. Can't believe you're trying to turn this discussion into a grammar lesson, rather than the fact that your enforcement of civility rules is a shit thing to do.

So back to the topic, if civility rules exist to defend minorities, which is what you claimed ... why do we need them if we already have rules against bigotry and hate speech?!?!

And also back to the topic, how is continuing to ignore the conversation to rudely insist on your incorrect interpretation of my clear words... even after I clarified ... how is that civil lmao

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I'm still not understanding why it's a shitty thing to stop people from having shouting matches and being bigots, which is what the civility rules are for, and you keep being rude rather than explaining it.

But it seems like you are not a fan of the 'no shouting matches' part, which seems to be the problem. And, again, I would suggest 4Chan if you want endless shouting matches.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I've explained multiple times, and if you had bothered to engage with my points rather than ignore them completely you would understand. Another poster also wrote out several paragraphs explaining why. You are PRETENDING to not have seen these explanations I wrote out.

Civility rules focus on the tone rather than the content, which is highly problematic because marginalized groups are often rightfully pissed the fuck off. That's probably like, the fifth time I've written out a version of that.

You are bringing up 4chan again after I already told you that that's fucked up since it's an extremely transphobic site, and I am a trans person. That's not civil lmao. You can continually insult me by telling me to go to 4chan, but if I say "fuck you" I gety posts taken down. Make that make sense. Nah, you won't because you get off on the power trip.

I have seen how you operate multiple times. You get into arguments with people, nitpick over dumb shit, and then when someone gets frustrated and uses meanie-poopoo-head language you take out your moderation powers. You have done this to me and I've seen you do this in other threads to other users. You really suck dude.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Then feel free to flag my post for violating incivility rules. Maybe I'll be banned. You seem to think I'm a moderator in this community when I'm not.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I know you're not a mod here 🙄 but that still gives you weight. You won't be taken down for civility because, as I have explained several times, the rules are enforced selectively and unfairly. You have more power in any community because of your status as a mod in other large communities, and because your style of incivility is assholeish condescension which is easy to pretend is polite. You are literally ignoring all my points, again, because you can't dispute what I say, and you benefit from the rules.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

lmao just saw your post history and literally one of your last post is FLAUNTING your mod power, literally just proving my point. You think being a mod gives you social weight, which it does, and the other mods also believe. And you can't see how incivility rules are enforced unfairly??? You are just pretending not to understand this.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

What are you even talking about now? Are you talking about this post? Where I said that they were welcome to ignore me or block me even if I'm a mod? That's a weird definition of 'flaunting.'

https://lemmy.world/comment/10079373

Again, if I have done anything to violate the rules in this community, do something about it. Flag my post.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

You KNOW that you are being a polite asshole and won't get your comment taken down. That is the entire point of my contention with you and the inequitable civility rule. You are IGNORING all of my points.

You bragged about how you're such a good guy because you're a mod. You just keep pretending to miss the point! It's really obvious!

You have literally not addressed anything I have said and have perpetually deflected. I think the only reason you are continuing to respond is you are hoping I'll get frustrated and say something that a mod will ban me over. This is exactly why these civility rules suck. This is why you suck. You have no response to any of my explanations and then lie and say I haven't explained myself. Every time I see you comment, my day gets worse, because you're always doing the same thing in every discussion I've seen you in.

And not once have you said "my bad" or "I'm wrong" even though you have been mistaken or presumptive multiple times. 🙄