this post was submitted on 26 Mar 2024
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Here's a list of tons of leftist movies.
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I've looked up what the ending of the books is and it sounds like the main conflict is resolved via deus ex machina and then everyone dies anyway so nothing that happened mattered at all
Yup. And the only reason any of the plot can even happen is totally bogus space magic that's so silly you can't even call it soft sci-fi. I gave up after the first book, and I really have nothing good to say about it. I've heard people opine that it was a lot of people's first science fiction book the same way Harry Potter was a lot of kids first fantasy adventure book, and that's why it had such an impact.
Yeah I hear it's about collapsing spatial dimensions as if reality itself is a perfect 1:1 copy of our simplified understanding of it (math) and it's done with technology that's super advanced so it never has to actually be described or follow conservation of energy or anything
Plus the entire premise seems to be a nihilistic parable about how fascism is right and you need to wipe out rival civilizations before they even know you exist, or they'll do the same to you
I see this take all the time here, and then when I (a person who read the book) counter that it's a Sci-Fi parable about Chinese foreign policy from the perspective of the Chinese (you need to keep your head down and not draw attention to yourself or the evil ~~Trisolarans~~ American Empire will come get you, humanity is the China stand in in the novel) white people yell at me for being some kind of asian chauvinist.
I have a theory that Westerners from the imperial core think of the Dark Forest and automatically put themselves in the Trisolarian imperialist POV, and are ideologically incapable of switching that POV to the side of the victims of imperialism. That’s the only way I can explain how they could have come away with that conclusion.
Nah, I'm not gonna be as uncharitable as all that (beyond the snark in my original post). Online western leftists have diegetic essentialism built into them as a survival mechanism, so when chuds deliberately push their reading of dark forest theory (and to be fair, it is very easy to see how Game Theory Law of the Jungle, Kill or Be Killed can be read that way) it sets off their Hitler particle detectors. I don't blame them as it's probably the most common take they'd encounter online.
The defensive realpolitik 'Keep your Head Down' reading is only apparent if you're familiar with China's recent history and foreign policy decisions post-Deng.
The part I don't get is the response - flee, fight, infiltrate, asimilate, but hiding from us aggression isn't possible. Plus, like... the US can't do what happens in TBP. Murder and genocide, yes, but the fickle, unstable, easily bored empire is constantly getting pushed back or defeated by nations that are vastly weaker on paper.
If tbp is supposed to endorse trying to "hide" from America all I can really come up with is that the author grossly and terrifyingly fails to understand the source and goals of american aggression.
And another thing - the trisolarans are fucked. They're fleeing their ultra-hostile home system where their annihilation could happen at any moment due to the orbital pattern of their stars. They need to leave, and once they leave they need to conquer earth because they have no where else go go.
The USA is very much the opposite. It's a natural fortress that has all or almost all of the resources needed to maintain itself indefinitely located within it's own borders. US imperialism is premised on the Capitalist drive for infinite profit. We're after cheap resources and cheap labor. If it weren't for the US's imperialist ideology the US could quite comfortably fort up in North America for a very long time.
The Trisolarans aren't an Imperialist power the way such powers exist on earth. There have been a few armies of exiles that have shown up somewhere, wrecked the place, and taken over but that's not the state of politics on earth and never was on any scale. The Trisolarans have a survival imperative that provides a justification within the story for their zero-sum, all or nothing invasion of Earth.
The equivalent of that in America is the
infesting our leadership, not any actually existing material problems. The only real barrier to, if not some utopian friendship, at least peaceful coexistence with China is our economic system. We overthrow capitalism, the primary motivation for conflict falls away.
The author doesn't care about the source or goals of american aggression. The author is more concerned about the effects of american aggression on his country. The author is Chinese and familiar with Chinese history, and is also aware of what happened to Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, and doesn't want that devastation visited upon his country, so he wrote a sci-fi parable about the wisdom of Dengist foreign policy and the dangers of discarding that foreign policy and attracting american imperial attention before military technological parity was achieved.
The Trisolarians are not the Americans. They are a metaphor for Imperial Japan (only 4 light years away), a weak imperialist power in a sea of even stronger imperialists who are trying to wipe each other out. (Note: in China, it is not controversial at all to see the Soviet Union as “imperialist”. That’s just how it is commonly perceived as part of the SIno-Soviet relationship, as China sees itself as being stuck in a global confrontation between the US and the USSR. This is why I said, this is a story that is written from the Chinese perspective, not from a Western imperialist perspective like many others.)
质子 (proton) is pronounced exactly the same as 智子 (sophon, or Tomoko, a Japanese female name) gave it away.
Japan underwent modernization in the late 19th century, narrowly avoided the fate of being colonized by Western powers and instead found themselves among the ranks of imperialist powers, driven by the need of resource expansion to colonize China.
Once again, you are trying to take everything at face value rather than exploring the deeper meanings of the story and the philosophical questions that the author is trying to provoke. This is not something you can get from just reading wikipedia pages lol.
One of the most important lines in the Dark Forest:
This was how it was translated into English:
I don’t know how well the translation went over people’s heads, but the point it is trying to provoke is, what is Humanity? If the universe is a hostile Dark Forest state, do we prioritize survival even if it means losing our Humanity? The author has his own predilection, but it doesn’t make the questions less provocative.
If the only way to survive in the world of harsh capitalism is to join the imperialist ranks (that includes the Soviet Union from the Chinese perspective, mind you, though I don’t agree with that labeling), then what is better: to survive at the cost of Humanity that defines us in the first place, or to preserve Humanity at all cost, even if it means this will lead to our own demise?
The title of Book 3 is translated as “Death’s End”, but in Chinese it is called 《死神永生》, which more accurately should be translated to something like “The God of Death is Eternal”.
spoiler for Book 3
The third book went much further that spanned the entire timeline until the end of the Universe. Big fish, small fish (big imperialists, small imperialists) - at the end of time they are nothing more than a speck of dust in the universe. Nobody can escape the God of Death.
And if that’s the case, is there a point to prolonging our survival, at the cost of all the traits that define us as Humanity to begin with?
So, make time for civilization, for civilization won’t make time.
Again, you cannot just read wikipedia and say that you know it all. It’s just fiction at the end of the day, but the point is to think about the questions it’s trying to provoke.
Huh, that is a really interesting reading. Maybe the Trisolarans can be used as a more generalised metaphor for imperialists then?
Is it accurate to say that the books can be read as an interrogation of recent Chinese history (from a modern, maybe somewhat liberal perspective), and it's trajectory? I haven't read books 2 & 3 to comment on them further.
I'll fully cop to not having read the book and thus not knowing about the nuances, but Dark Forest existed as a proposed answer to the Fermi Paradox well before Three Body Problem was written, and I really do think people need to examine the mindset that leads someone to theorize that the reason we don't hear from other civilizations is that any attempts to contact another one results in immediate annihilation. This shit doesn't form in a vacuum.
It just sounds like there's enough little nitpicky things in the books that they'll bother me, and I don't need my brain chasing down more loose ends to ruminate over. I am still pissed about how shitty His Dark Materials was after hearing all the praise it got, and it's been damn near 20 years. I can't get those plot holes out of my head. Parts of me are still mad at them.
Cringe? Maybe. I don't really give a fuck if people think I'm cringe anymore.
Hey, look, as a person living in a glass house I'm not about to just start throwing cringe stones everywhere, but imo I think we should be really clear on whether we're discussing the Three Body Problem (the book/tv show) or The Dark Forest Theory (the thought experiment), because there absolutely are legitimate criticisms of both of those things, but we kinda need to be careful not to conflate the two, because the chief concern of the book is the question "Is it possible for China to not get colonised by a technologically superior foe?", which is somewhat related but quite a bit different from the "The Reason we don't hear from aliens is because everyone's really mean".
This is really more of a meta-discussion about the things people say about the book. I'm in no position to actually criticize the book, just the things I've heard about it that make it sound unappealing to me. I don't really know what the book's ideological bent is, but the way I've seen it marketed and discussed is "Dark Forest Theory: The Book (now extra depressing!)" so it's understandable people unfamiliar with it would conflate the two
I do think Dark Forest is total horseshit, tbh. Feels way too simplistic and just takes it as a given that relativistic weaponry is possible, practical, and can't be countered, and seems to think launching a civilization-scale attack across interstellar distances is not something that would signal your presence to other civilizations. Don't send radio signals! Things that wipe out entire solar systems? Very smart to send, probably nobody will notice. Like, what happens when the Trisolarans successfully invade? An entire species loading up into ships and hurling themselves at sublight in a linear direction isn't something others would notice? What happens when the Quadsolarans show up and use their superiorior super-technology to beat them up? Then the Pentasolarans and on and on in a DBZ-esque power creep forever and ever? Maybe I'm just being a smartass about it but it feels like it doesn't hold water to me.
Ok? But the things people are saying about the book are wrong tho, either because we're going on hearsay or because of misreading of the text (deliberate or otherwise) and what it is trying to say. Dark Forest Theory as it's used in The Three Body Problem is a sci-fi narrative framing device to discuss US-China relations, and imo I don't think the book is particularly interested in exploring the idea beyond that allegorical framing.
Oh yeah totally I agree with you on that. I don't think any sufficiently advanced civilization can advance beyond their solar system without communism, and once a civilization is capable of interstellar travel they probably are capable of defending themselves from extinction anyway.
(Also I think the scenario you outline happens in the books but I haven't read that far yet.)
I bet when the Dodecasolarans arrive it gets real fucked up
I just saw something that happens in the book called out for this. A dude sends a radio signal from a star to test the "dark forest". The star blows up, so they decide yes, the dark forest is in effect. But the obvious problem is that the attackers don't do any follow up. They don't scout the star to see if anyone is actually there, they don't treat it as a potential trap by the dark forest predator they're supposed to be hiding from. If you shoot a giant relativistic or ftl or magic weapon at someone and you don't kill all of them at the same time they'll just follow the line of your weapon back to you and either counter-attack and wipe you out, or broad-band your position to everyone else so you get wiped out anyway.
The solution to the Dark Forest is War Games: the only winning move is not to play. The book seems like it's trying to engage with nuclear deterrence and MAD is some way, but then forgets about second-strike weapons - nuclear missile armed submarines - that are the foundation on which MAD rests. If second-strike weapons exist you can't do silly shit like this. Maybe it's supposed to make some kind of sense in the silly space-magic of the book, but irl the us can't destroy China without destroying itself and the whole world.
Maybe that's why I didn't get it. Trying to keep your head down and not draw the US's ire is the worst possible way to deal with a belligerent facist power engaged in a zero-sum game of world domination. Also, the relationship is radically different - the us and china are primary trade partners, Earth uses multiple layers of MAD as nuclear deterrent, we can literally go visit each other whenever.
Like i don't really get what the author was going for how can China hide from the US? How does the relationship between earth and the trisolarans map to the us/china relationship at all?
Ok I'll elaborate but don't get mad at me for pointing out things that are kinda obvious from an asian perspective that seemingly alot of western commentators miss/overlook. I'm also not going to claim to be an expert on Chinese foreign policy.
Ah, yes, which is famously why China has gone to war with the United States to establish global communism in the time since the Korean War. To quote Deng Xiaoping, Chinese foreign policy since the 1980's has been “biding our time and hiding our capabilities”. Actually pertinent leftist criticism of Dengism and China has been the amount (or lack thereof) of support for socialist causes/states, especially post Sino-Soviet split. Ask yourself: if China is socialist, why are the us and china trade partners? Shouldn't principled communists fight to end capitalism at every turn? (And to be clear so I don't get mistaken for an ultra: there are very good reasons for China embarking on the the path it has taken. But this is still a valid criticism.)
It needs to be stated that China has had a long history of being the victim of colonial powers. The Century of Humiliation is as important context for this work as the Cultural Revolution, and much of the driving force that created the Chinese Communist Party and fuels Chinese nationalism to this day is the desire to avoid a repeat of that dark time. The Dark Forest Theory as it is presented in the book is meant to be approached from the defender's side: is it wise to bide our time and hide our capabilities? Is it enough?
It's a Sci-fi allegory to frame the question: "Is it possible for a technologically inferior nation to avoid colonization by a technologically superior one, and if so how?"
I think it goes without saying that a Chinese author might give a pessimistic answer.
Also, to cover all my bases: Chinese foreign policy has shifted rather significantly under Xi Jinping to a more active role. Please remember that the Three Body Problem was published in 2008. Also, and this should really go without saying- it reflects the views and fears of the author only, and all that entails. Whether the allegory is as relevant now as it was when it was published is a separate matter of discussion.
Just speaking on the first book (I haven't finished books 2 & 3):
The main antagonist is a comprador who gets disillusioned with communism and sells out her ~~country~~ planet.
The Trisolaran's uses espionage and soft power propaganda (literally videogames) to sway the brightest of minds of humanity to their side. Reminder, the book was written in the 2000's, when Chinese fears of a brain drain were real.
The biggest one: the Trisolaran's grand plan is to freeze technological progress on Earth. The US has been attempting to do the same to China by sanctioning semiconductors.
This is kinda the open question the work is concerned with, and in the end the conclusion is that ~~Humanity~~ China can't? That the only conclusion to avoid open war and colonisation is technological parity?
I feel like I'm the only person who thinks and says this, everybody else (including leftists) is obsessed with random shit like China cheating on their SATs or building trains or fake genocides.
I mean, the problem is that you can kinda trip and fall into US state department talking points if you're not careful, so I get why people don't do it in leftist spaces online.
Personally, I feel that since I can't influence Chinese policy one way or the other and that only the passage of time will reveal whether Socialism with Chinese Characteristics pans out or not, I should focus on what I can do locally rather than worry if China is actually communist or not.
That said, Xi please
Fyi about 3 years ago, our minister for cracker control, Black Red Guard, also mentioned China's lack of material support to Nepal's recent Maoist revolution.
Yes that also falls under his area of responsibility, fighting the good fight against suburban karens lol
I mean I've listened to the audiobooks and I got to say if the Dark Forest is a metaphor for Chinese foreign policy than holy shit is it a bad one, the premise just absolutely swamps the supposed subtext to the point the author could only advance the plot thru contrivance and mangled subplots about magic WMDs
The premise itself is never actaully subverted or even examined in any serious way, by the half way point of the second book it's just completely taken at face value and as a result the narrative grinds to a halt, earth gets fucked in the end, the universe is collapsing and the constant timeskips destroys any hope of stakes or urgency in the plot
I just don't see anything analogous with the Dark Forest theory and modern Asian geopolitics
Avoiding open confrontation with a technologically superior opponent? (Again, the Three Body Problem was published in 2008. China's military capability has greatly grown since then.) Approach it from the defender's perspective: if there's a genocidal fascist colonist entity, do you risk broadcasting your location/global presence or is it wiser to do everything you can to avoid notice?
Are the books about the consequences of drawing the attention of that entity?
I love how Hexbears just make up their minds about what they think of the works they never even bothered to read lol. Never change.
I didn't make up my mind, I stated the impression I have of it based on what I've gleaned and stating my non-interest
Yes that thing we do with Harry Potter all the time yeah
I must read all Harry Potter books before I can dunk on them for portraying slavery as totally cool
i mean yeah if you've never read the books it's pretty cringe to say stuff like that. you don't know how slavery is portrayed in the books, you havent read them.
I can criticize the books for that because I've read them and know how the main character is literally a slave owner, but for all you know I made that up.
I think you are the minority of that one
You're right, fascism famously has nothing to do with the notion of a clash of civilizations wherein one must entirely subvert or eliminate the other as an inevitability of coexistence
it's a better horror story than a sci-fi story
I guess, but the sciencyness being so silly didn't work for me. Lovecraft style cosmic horror just straight up says "there are weird aliens who are totally bizarre and incomprehensible and they do psychic space magic for reasons your pathetic mammal brain will never understand and even a glancing encounter with them is so strange it will destroy your mind" and i can get behind that because it's fun silly.
This is just "hey, what if your neighbors were total assholes?"
Once the sophons show up there's no tension for the rest of the story bc it's just like "oh, the trisolarans have magic and can do anything they want no matter how little sense it makes." Like a big part of horror is gradually figuring out what the enemy is and realizing how totally fucked you are, but the sophons aren't possible and don't follow any physical rules so it's just like "welp, guess we're fucked then".
I always compare it to revelation space, another story that explores the Dark Forest idea.
spoiler
The Wolves in Revelation Space are real fucking weird, but you get deep, deep in to the story before you really even get the edges of what they are and what they're really capable of. The first book in the series is full of rapidly escalating "oh shit moments as the scale of how totally fucked everything is ratchets up again and again and again. The bad guys have a lot of space-magic that definitely does not agree with physics, but they're also up against fairly hard limits - lightspeed travel takes a long time, ftl is impossible, even the super-high tech alien spookies still need to respect conservation of energy. When they finally pull out their trump card it's the scale that is completely horrifying.The second book is legit terrifying in so many ways. I don't even want to read it again. Third book is ok but nothing special. The ending was a bit meh for me but there is an ending at least.
Oh you watched Interstellar (2014), too?
I mean to be fair the last book ends with the literal death of the universe