this post was submitted on 09 Sep 2024
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Google recently rewrote the firmware for protected virtual machines in its Android Virtualization Framework using the Rust programming language and wants you to do the same, assuming you deal with firmware.

In a write-up on Thursday, Android engineers Ivan Lozano and Dominik Maier dig into the technical details of replacing legacy C and C++ code with Rust.

"You'll see how easy it is to boost security with drop-in Rust replacements, and we'll even demonstrate how the Rust toolchain can handle specialized bare-metal targets," said Lozano and Maier.

Easy is not a term commonly heard with regard to a programming language known for its steep learning curve.

Nor is it easy to get C and C++ developers to see the world with Rust-tinted lenses. Just last week, one of the maintainers of the Rust for Linux project - created to work Rust code into the C-based Linux kernel - stepped down, citing resistance from Linux kernel developers.

"Here's the thing, you're not going to force all of us to learn Rust," said a Linux kernel contributor during a lively discussion earlier this year at a conference.

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[–] [email protected] 68 points 1 month ago (21 children)

Here's the thing, you're not going to force all of us to learn Rust

That seems like a poor attitude imo.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 month ago (4 children)

A valid point tho. Generally it is difficult to ask everybody to learn a new language.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 month ago (3 children)

I mean, I work as a software engineering and if I'm not doing continuing ed, be it about architecture, storage, or new languages, I'm going to be of less value in the marketplace. I've learnt languages I didn't particularly want to in the past for work (though I generally came to tolerate or even like some of them. Not lua, though; lua can go to hell).

If Rust truly is the better, safer option, then these people are holding everything back.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (7 children)

"learn Rust" in this case is learn it to a level where all of the little behaviour around cross language integrations are understood and security flaws won't be introduced. Expert level.

It's not "I did a pet project over the weekend".

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 month ago (4 children)

You are correct and I am aware of that. However, it also seems that they both refuse to learn it and refuse to work with people at that expert level based on the recent drama, which seems very much like holding things back to me.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 month ago (1 children)

C/C++ is the bedrock of our modern civilization in some ways more fundamental than actual bedrock, the first step in getting any OS running is making it run C and after that you are basically done, it’s not surprising that developers resist, if nothing else it’s a common language, and standards are hard to change on the best of days. This isn’t just learning a language, it’s a complete paradigm shift.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The bedrock of modern civilizations is expensive to develop, buggy and unergonomic though.

If you make C run, you probably (I'm not sure, would have to verify) can make rust run. And if there isn't yet, there will probably soon be a C compiler written in rust, so you can choose to bootstrap from wherever you prefer.

C's ABI will probably last longer than C, since there is not a stable rust ABI though.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

You cannot, today, build a Rust compiler directly from C, but you're right that people are working on it. See this recent post: https://notgull.net/announcing-dozer/

Edit: you can certainly bootstrap Rust from C via C++, as the article covers. I misinterpreted the comment above.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

It's not a question of what's the better option. In reality we have a lot of software that already exists and works, and you can't replace it all in bulk at the same time. So the question is whether the implementation of Rust makes logistical sense, given the difficulties of maintaining currently existing software while replacing some parts of it.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 month ago

Fortunately, they aren’t being asked to do that. All the rust team was requesting was metadata about the call signatures so that they could have a grasp on expected behavior.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 month ago

It would be a valid point if he weren't literally speaking over the people trying to tell him that they're not demanding he learn Rust: https://youtu.be/WiPp9YEBV0Q?si=b3OB4Y9LU-ffJA4c&t=1548

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Oh jeeze, you have no idea. You can watch it yourself: https://youtu.be/WiPp9YEBV0Q?si=b3OB4Y9LU-ffJA4c&t=1548

That timestamp is about where the audience member (a maintainer of ext4 and related utilities) starts speaking. The "here's the thing" quote is around 28:40.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 month ago

Wow what an absolute dick

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I mean aren't they forcing everyone else to learn C/C++ otherwise? If we follow that logic, at least

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I guess you can argue it's already written in C. So that was always a requirement.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (6 children)

That way we'll just find maintainers went near extinct over time, just like COBOL developers that are as rare as they are expensive. Only Linux kernel isn't a bank, and maybe will not have as much money to pay to rare developers capable of maintaining C codebase

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[–] [email protected] 65 points 1 month ago (4 children)

One of the deep-pocketed founding members of the Rust Foundation says it's easy. I'm surprised.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Wut? They're a member, because they find Rust useful. This is just them saying another time that they find Rust useful.
While they (and everyone using Rust) will benefit off of more people using Rust, it's not like they have a vested interest to the point of spreading misinformation.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

They’re a member, because they find Rust useful. This is just them saying another time that they find Rust useful.

Fans of a programming language stating they like the programming language is hardly thought-provoking stuff. There are also apps written in brainfuck and that means nothing as well.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

I'm pretty sure that's not how dyslexia works, but either way, I didn't write that. And while the title of the article suggests otherwise, the news here isn't that Google says something is easy. The news is that they published a guide to make that thing easy.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Clearly Rust is a conspiracy.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Clearly Rust is a conspiracy.

Anyone in software development who was not born yesterday is already well aware of the whole FOMO cycle:

  1. hey there's a shiny new tool,
  2. it's so fantastic only morons don't use it,
  3. oh god what a huge mistake I did,
  4. hey, there's a shiny new tool,
[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (3 children)

I assume that you do know that tools improve objectively in the cycle and are making a joke on purpose.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Yeah, because the new tools are never actually better, right? If condescending luddites like you had your way we'd still be living in the literal stone age. At every step of the way, people like you have smugly said that the older, more established ways of doing things were good enough and new ways were just a fad that would die out.

Your favorite language was dismissed as fad when it was new. High level languages were a fad. Computing was a fad. Electricity was a fad. See a pattern?

Nice job projecting with the "only morons" bit, BTW, when it is in fact you who started off by denigrating people whose preferences are different from yours.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

The ruinous powers are plotting once more

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[–] [email protected] 46 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

2024: Google says replacing C/C++ with Rust is easy

2025: Google buys Rust

2026: Google shuts down Rust

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

😆🙄🤔Wait, Isn't rust a community made project?

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 month ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago

They need to tell that to Theodore Ts’o.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (7 children)

Rust is one of those things that every time I look into it, I don't really follow what makes it so good. What's a good starter project to learn the language and get a sense of what makes it worthwhile over the established stuff?

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

If the target for the firmware has stdlib already implemented, my experience has been that it is indeed easy with minimal experience in the language.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Mixing "firmware" with "easy with minimal experience" in the same sentence makes me cringe...

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago (2 children)

That's fair. To be clear, I meant minimal experience with the Rust programming language. I've mainly tinkered with ESP32 types of MCUs in Arduino and CircuitPython when it comes to firmware, but have much more software experience. In some ways, I found the little bit of Rust that I tried easier because of the tooling - defaulting to a CLI tool to flash rather than an IDE is much more comfortable for me.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Meh, it's depends on what you do. I know several low level C engineers who would be far more comfortable rolling a fresh driver over doing some more abstract intro CS projects.

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