this post was submitted on 09 Sep 2024
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Google recently rewrote the firmware for protected virtual machines in its Android Virtualization Framework using the Rust programming language and wants you to do the same, assuming you deal with firmware.

In a write-up on Thursday, Android engineers Ivan Lozano and Dominik Maier dig into the technical details of replacing legacy C and C++ code with Rust.

"You'll see how easy it is to boost security with drop-in Rust replacements, and we'll even demonstrate how the Rust toolchain can handle specialized bare-metal targets," said Lozano and Maier.

Easy is not a term commonly heard with regard to a programming language known for its steep learning curve.

Nor is it easy to get C and C++ developers to see the world with Rust-tinted lenses. Just last week, one of the maintainers of the Rust for Linux project - created to work Rust code into the C-based Linux kernel - stepped down, citing resistance from Linux kernel developers.

"Here's the thing, you're not going to force all of us to learn Rust," said a Linux kernel contributor during a lively discussion earlier this year at a conference.

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[–] [email protected] 68 points 1 month ago (21 children)

Here's the thing, you're not going to force all of us to learn Rust

That seems like a poor attitude imo.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 month ago (4 children)

A valid point tho. Generally it is difficult to ask everybody to learn a new language.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 month ago (3 children)

I mean, I work as a software engineering and if I'm not doing continuing ed, be it about architecture, storage, or new languages, I'm going to be of less value in the marketplace. I've learnt languages I didn't particularly want to in the past for work (though I generally came to tolerate or even like some of them. Not lua, though; lua can go to hell).

If Rust truly is the better, safer option, then these people are holding everything back.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

"learn Rust" in this case is learn it to a level where all of the little behaviour around cross language integrations are understood and security flaws won't be introduced. Expert level.

It's not "I did a pet project over the weekend".

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You are correct and I am aware of that. However, it also seems that they both refuse to learn it and refuse to work with people at that expert level based on the recent drama, which seems very much like holding things back to me.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

If you mean the drama I'm thinking off, that seemed to me to be a guy taking on a role that was always going to be 90% political because people are resistant, and sometimes downright hostile, to change and then flouncing off when it was 90% political.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (1 children)

He spent four years as the project maintainer. That's hardly "flouncing off."

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Flouncing off is about the drama of leaving, not the time served before doing so. You can be in a role for decades and then flounce off!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Oh. Well, in that case, his resignation message was pretty matter-of-fact, not dramatic. He did link, in a note at the end of the email, to the now-infamous "the fact is, you're not going to force everyone to learn Rust" video, and the drama was more or less self-manufacturing from there. But to be honest, I think it's a good thing that more people are seeing that video than otherwise would have, and I can't really blame him for linking to it.

And isn't it somewhat concerning that bringing Rust to the kernel is still so controversial and highly "political", several years after initial approval by Linus and Greg KH?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

That's a lot easily than learning the C to the same level and they "force" everyone to learn C.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Sure for newcomers to a project like the Linux kernel they have to learn C , because that is what the project is currently written in, but trying to transition the Linux kernel to rust forces people who already are contributing to go and learn rust to be able to continue what they were already doing. And sure you can argue that it's being done so not everything has to go over at once, but there is a level of rust knowledge required at the interface between the two languages, and that burden is as far as I've seen being forced on those long term contributors.

It's not the same thing.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago

and that burden is as far as I’ve seen being forced on those long term contributors.

This is not what is happening. The current long term contributors were asked to clarify semantics about C APIs, so the Rust maintainers could take it from there. At no point were the C maintainers asked to help maintain the Rust bindings.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 month ago (1 children)

C/C++ is the bedrock of our modern civilization in some ways more fundamental than actual bedrock, the first step in getting any OS running is making it run C and after that you are basically done, it’s not surprising that developers resist, if nothing else it’s a common language, and standards are hard to change on the best of days. This isn’t just learning a language, it’s a complete paradigm shift.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The bedrock of modern civilizations is expensive to develop, buggy and unergonomic though.

If you make C run, you probably (I'm not sure, would have to verify) can make rust run. And if there isn't yet, there will probably soon be a C compiler written in rust, so you can choose to bootstrap from wherever you prefer.

C's ABI will probably last longer than C, since there is not a stable rust ABI though.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

You cannot, today, build a Rust compiler directly from C, but you're right that people are working on it. See this recent post: https://notgull.net/announcing-dozer/

Edit: you can certainly bootstrap Rust from C via C++, as the article covers. I misinterpreted the comment above.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Currently it's a long chain from an early version of GCC to the latest one, then mrustc (in C++) which can compile rustc 1.54.0.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

To be fair, in that article mentions the way to get rust from C. Sure, there is not a compiler written in C, but C is down there in the list of compilers needed for rust, so "just" need to compile some other compilers in the middle.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

Ah, sorry, I misinterpreted your comment somehow. Yes, Rust is bootstrappable today, it's just a much longer process than it would be if there were a compiler written in C.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

It's not a question of what's the better option. In reality we have a lot of software that already exists and works, and you can't replace it all in bulk at the same time. So the question is whether the implementation of Rust makes logistical sense, given the difficulties of maintaining currently existing software while replacing some parts of it.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 month ago

Fortunately, they aren’t being asked to do that. All the rust team was requesting was metadata about the call signatures so that they could have a grasp on expected behavior.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 month ago

It would be a valid point if he weren't literally speaking over the people trying to tell him that they're not demanding he learn Rust: https://youtu.be/WiPp9YEBV0Q?si=b3OB4Y9LU-ffJA4c&t=1548

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 month ago

It isn't unreasonable to ask someone to learn a new language, if they currently only speak Sumeric.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Oh jeeze, you have no idea. You can watch it yourself: https://youtu.be/WiPp9YEBV0Q?si=b3OB4Y9LU-ffJA4c&t=1548

That timestamp is about where the audience member (a maintainer of ext4 and related utilities) starts speaking. The "here's the thing" quote is around 28:40.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 month ago

Wow what an absolute dick

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I mean aren't they forcing everyone else to learn C/C++ otherwise? If we follow that logic, at least

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I guess you can argue it's already written in C. So that was always a requirement.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

That way we'll just find maintainers went near extinct over time, just like COBOL developers that are as rare as they are expensive. Only Linux kernel isn't a bank, and maybe will not have as much money to pay to rare developers capable of maintaining C codebase

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

That way we’ll just find maintainers went near extinct over time, just like COBOL developers that are as rare as they are expensive.

Care to take a shot at figuring out why COBOL is still used today?

I mean, feel free to waste your time arguing for rewrites in your flavor of the month. That's how many failed projects start, too, so you can have your shot at proving them wrong.

But in the meantime you can try to think about the problem, because "rewrite it in Rust" is only reasonable for the types who are completely oblivious to the realities of professional software development.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It's used because the ones who use it have enough money to pay for any problems that may arise from it's use, and known problems are deemed better than unknown ones.

It is a viable model when you have enough money and resources, but a conservative one

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It’s used because the ones who use it have enough money to pay for any problems that may arise from it’s use, (...)

That's laughable. Literally the whole world uses it. Are you telling me that everyone in the world just loves to waste money? Unbelievable.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Have you ever worked at large old corporation? Wasting money is a bit of an underestimation on that scale.

Also, not all banks use COBOL, but the ones that don't are usually much younger.

Besides, Ada would've been a better example, as it is used by telecoms and seems to be held in high regard, unlike COBOL. The only issue with Ada I heard of is that it's on par with C++ in complexity which is far from being simple.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Have you ever worked at large old corporation?

I'm not sure you understand that it's way more than "large old corporations" that use it. Everyone uses it, from large multinationals to small one-taxi shops, and even guys like you and me in personal projects. This has been going on for years. I really don't know what led you to talk about large old corporations, seriously.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

Are we still talking about COBOL?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

Yeah, I know, but I meant that that technically forces C on everyone.

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