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submitted 2 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[-] [email protected] 39 points 2 months ago

The more infrastructure they lay and the more customers they connect, the harder to shut them down. The more bail-worthy they become.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Yeah they're trying hard to achieve the "too big to kill" status, like shamu.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Shamu would have succumbed to a .308 to the brain pan. There ain't shit that is "to big to be killed", just those unwilling to do the killing.

[-] [email protected] 19 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Because we live in Canada and our design day heating energy requirement is typically far greater than our design day cooling energy requirement. Add in the fact that best pump efficiency falls way off at design day heating (to half or less of design day cooling) and you end up with equipment that may be able to do heating and cooling but is way oversized for cooling, so lots of people opt to save capital (and potentially maintenance) money by relying on gas heat for the coldest days.

Because water heating with heat pumps is currently garbage on the residential scale... the heat pump capacity on residential water heaters is quit low, which is fine for keeping the tank warm but not for dealing with a half decent draw, so they all include full electric capacity which means you need the service size and associated operating costs to go along with it. Commercial heat pump water heating isn't much better, it may get better once CO2 or propane take off as a refrigerant here.

Because more and more buildings are putting in emergency generators, which require either natural gas, propane or fuel oil. One of those is significantly easisr to install and maintain than the other two.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Although this might be accurate, what would be the true cost of gas if you removed all the subsidies and added the cost of fossil fueled warming from the continued GHG release? What will be the cost of gas if climate change really starts to pop and we undergo radically accelerated decarbonization? What is the projected cost of renewables + batteries + electric heating in 5, 10 or 20 years?

These are more relevant details regarding the building of infa that should be built to last, and is costed to last, for several decades.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

I just had to buy a new gas furnace and air conditioner, so, with my mind on global warming, I asked the furnace guy what it would cost to put in a heat pump. He said he has put in quite a few, but the costs have gone way up. He also said that in our climate I would need an electric back-up furnace for winter because a heat pump loses efficiency quickly at temps below -15C. The cost was going to be around $30,000, compared to $15,000 for the new gas furnace and AC. Also, electricity in Ontario is an incredibly expensive way to heat, so that would be a big extra monthly cost in the winter. An in-ground geothermal system would be about $65,000, he said.

It isn't hard to see why gas is still popular, and that it will continue to be far into the future unless we undertake some kind of national project to replace our fossil fuel infrastructure with nuclear for the needed electricity and then convert our cars and homes over to full electric.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Did you asking about getting a heat pump to run the AC coil above the gas furnace instead of just a regular outdoor AC unit? The cost difference in hardware is only a few hundred dollars at most (for same sized unit, maybe $500-$700 if you are going up a size to hear for longer into the winter), installation cost should be the same and while it doesn't eliminate gas burining you can reduce it by probably 50% - 70%.

This is basically what I'm in the process if doing, except rather than a furnace replacement I'm only doing it to add AC because I currently don't have AC on my furnace.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

No, I didn't know that was an option. Cool idea, though. No pun intended, but I'll take it.

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[-] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago

The boat salesman says you need a boat.

YOU pay for the infrastructure, YOU pay for the maintenance, YOU pay for the gas. Why would they stop now?

[-] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago

"Growth at any cost" is a great motto for corporations, and cancer.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

Because number has to go up. Always. Forever. Unending.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

Because money.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

The problem is, they aren't going anywhere. They'll just funnel money to politicians to stop any attempt to stop them.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

That's great for climate goals, but can someone tell me how we're supposed to heat our homes? Electricity?

[-] [email protected] 35 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)
  1. Better insulation.
  2. Heat pumps.
  3. By the time gas heating is eliminated, climate change will have solved that problem.
[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Climat change won't magically remove heating needs. It will bring hotter summers, colder winters, bed weather etc.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Heat pumps sounds like a good way forward. I haven't looked into the cost to replace a heater in a home, but I guess new homes could just have them installed by default.

What about natural gas use in home cooking/restaurants? Surely, you can't just replace that easily.

EDIT: And what about heating water? I mean, natural gas is used for more than heating the space in a home.

[-] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago

Induction stovetops are fast, efficient, and safe. (but regular electric is fine as well)

Water heaters are similarly available in electric and heat pump configurations.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

I have a 200v induction cooktop. My only complaint so far is that I don't quite have as fine-grained control as I did with gas, but that doesn't matter most of the time. It also isn't heating up and around the pan. In any case, I have a portable casette gas stove if I really want to make Chinese in a wok with high heat and the flame coming up the sides.

My water heater is an eco-cute and does quite well for energy efficiency. It was a bit of a change coming back from instant on-demand gas water heaters, but it's fine now that I'm used to it.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Surely you can. Modern electric stovetops use infrared radiation from a wire coil to heat cookware. The stovetop is covered with a ceramic that allows infrared radiation to pass through, and if you put something on it, it'll absorb the radiation as heat. The technology is also scalable to industrial applications.

I'll let Brown Jacket Man explain the principle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff04ecF9Dfw

(edit) My house has an electric water heater that was built in the Soviet Union. It uses a ~200-litre tank with a large heating element inside.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Those ceramic/glasstop ovens are shit. An old school coil will always be better, or modern induction.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Don’t confuse the old school glass flat tops with the induction ones. They use different methods and work very differently even though they look alike.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Meh they’re fine. Yes induction is better but they’re not shit.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Ceramic/glass top electric is shit. I've used gas and induction a fair amount, but at home I have a mid range priced electric ceramic and it's terrible compared to the other two options.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Shitty modern electric stove tops use infrared radiation. Good modern electric stove tops are induction

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[-] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

Um, yes? Heat pump until -15C, baseboards for the relatively fewer days that go below that. Plus good insulation.

In Quebec we have cheap hydroelectric of course, but I mean, between nuclear power, renewables and hydro, that's basically how.

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[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Annnnnd this is exactly why we need the carbon tax.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Probably same reason as here in Australia.

The gas companies have managed to create a multifaceted cult where they've brainwashed people into thinking electricity is unclean (despite things like heat pumps being 500% efficient), unreliable and expensive.

Also, it helps that people who paid too much for their ICE cars are scared and they know that their cars will increasingly drop in value as people transition away from gas and fossil fuels.

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[-] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Natural gas infrastructure and heating could be transitioned to hydrogen or biogas.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas so would not really be a replacement for the foreseeable future. Gas infrastructure is not designed for transporting hydrogen so leaks would be significant. Hydrogen can also penetrate into steel piping and cause it to crack and deteriorate more rapidly.

Biogas, sure if there were enough production available.

[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

No reason we can't produce hydrogen from solar, wind, hydro, and geothermal.

Add carbon dioxide to the hydrogen, and you get methane that you can transport through existing gas pipelines without the issues of hydrogen

[-] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

A perfect Electrolysis reaction takes about 39kwh to produce 1kg of hydrogen that if burned at 100% efficiency would yield 33kwh of power. More realistically it takes 50-60kwh to produce 1kg that is burned to produce ~25kwh of usable energy.

I'm not too sure about converting hydrogen to methane but that will have energy overhead as well, and then you have to deal with the fact that 6% of natural gas production today is leaked into the air, which both further hurts the efficiency of synthesizing it and also has a significant climate impact.

I think it willl almost always be cheaper to just provide electricity directly except in cases where energy density is far more important than efficiency, which is not the case for stationary homes.

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[-] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


In 2022, buildings accounted for 13 per cent of the country's emissions, making them the third biggest source of greenhouse gases by sector, after oil and gas and transportation.

It was overseen by provincial and territorial regulators whose key goal was to ensure safe and reliable energy at fair rates for customers.

It aimed to incentivize developers "to choose the most cost-effective, energy-efficient choice," but the board was overruled by the Ontario government, so the original plan will go ahead.

Kate Harland, lead author of the Canadian Climate Institute report, said utility regulators' mandates should be changed to include climate targets, as has been done in the U.K. And they could change "obligation to serve rules" in order to consider alternative technologies, such as electrification, energy efficiency measures or thermal networks to provide heating to customers.

It is the perfect method to allow gas utilities to transition and keep or increase their annual profit, while at the same time reducing the customer's energy bills, according to Schulman.

Harland says current incentives alone won't drive down customer demand for gas quickly enough and energy policies need to change.


The original article contains 1,091 words, the summary contains 182 words. Saved 83%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

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this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2024
210 points (98.2% liked)

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