Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
[Matrix/Element]Dead
much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
No company is going to legally go to bat for you for $10/mo. I love how Proton nonchalantly calls out the user's dumb move in the article:
Proton provides privacy by default and not anonymity by default because anonymity requires certain user actions to ensure proper OpSec, such as not adding your Apple account as an optional recovery method. Note, Proton does not require adding a recovery address as this information can in theory be turned over under Swiss court order...
It is worth noting though, that Proton doesn't allow you to use certain domains for recovery addresses. Admittedly this was awhile ago and maybe things have changed there but when I first joined Proton they wouldn't allow me to set a duck.com or simplelogin.com or addy.io address as a recovery email.
Obviously using an apple ID is stupid but Proton could make more of an effort too.
Proton does require a recovery email address if you sign up to a mail forwarding service or similar, right after creating the account. In that case the account remains locked if you don’t, so that’s just a lie
In the article it says that that's a one-time verification address. Though that leaves the question if/how long it's stored
At any point in the process, does it warn you about setting up recovery with personal email addresses?
Feels like with as much as Proton advertises nowadays as a privacy protecting service, they need to be taking into consideration that a lot of their customers now are going to be average users who don't know anything about proper OpSec. They should be much clearer about what things they can't protect you from.
It shouldn't be in a press release like this, they should be explaining the difference between privacy and anonymity to the customer. It's not like their marketing team isn't aware of the fact most people don't know any better.
It's in their best interests, too, because it doesn't matter how many times you say "we provide privacy not anonymity", the headlines are a bad look.
What would be a more appropriate email address to use - or just no recovery email?
It's best for anonymity to not use one at all. Proton provides a recovery key to allow access to your account if you manage to lock yourself out. Keep that key somewhere safe/secure.
Logically, any service, whether private or not, is required by law to reveal the user data they have, if there is a court order for a criminal investigation. Proton cannot refuse, if it does not want to face a complaint that could even lead to the closure of its service. That is, in this headline the "Proton Mail" can be replaced by any other email, host, chat, social network, VPN, Lemmy, it can occur in any of them. As said, read TOS and PP of what you use
except they told users in the past that they dont have this informaion
They don't have information about the content of the mails, but same as any other mail provider the account data and the IP, this is the data which they can provide to the police. The rest are informations from the ISP and from own investigations of the police itself. Because of this the title that "Proton discloses user data leading to arrest in Spain" is somewhat sensationalist.
Proton should look who was asking the disclosure. He's a known far-right judge that opens cases like beer cans. And the "terrorist" group is marked as such because someone had a heart attack the same day there were protests in Catalonia.
Does it matter? He's still a judge with a judge's authority. If their policy is to obey the law then the political views of the judge don't change the fact that his order was lawful.
So if a Russian judge had asked the same the outcome would be the same too? Or a Chinese one?
And then I am the one exaggerating... I'll say it again, Proton is just another company that managed to find clever ways to profit from a group of people who value things such as "privacy".
They're just a very large marketing effort with little to nothing to show but everyone is convinced they're actually protecting users while they keep pushing proprietary / half open and non standard stuff as solutions for problems already solved with truly open tools, standards and protocols.
Proton did nothing wrong here; in fact, it is working as intended.
No email content or attachment was provided in this case because they (Proton) have nothing to give. Now, imagine if this user were using Gmail instead of Proton.
The article title is clickbait and is trying to incite outrage from the crowd. Don't fall for it.
I'm not sure how I feel about this news story.
On the one side, it's good to make sure people are aware of the limitations of secure email providers. However on the other the article almost reads as of this should be a surprise to people?
I use Proton mail and pay for my account. I don't pay for anonyminity - I pay for privacy. They are two very different things.
The article talks about Opsec (operational security) and they're right - if you need anonyminity then don't use your personal apple email as a recovery address. That is a flaw in the user approach and expectations that unencrypted data held by Proton is also "secure". Your basic details and your IP address are going to be recorded and available to law enforcement. Use a VPN or Tor to access the service and use another untraceable email for recovery, and pay via crypto if you want true anonymity. And even then there are other methods of anonymous or untraceable secure email that may be better than Proton mail (such as self hosted).
But for most users like myself, if you're not looking for anonyminity then Proton is fine as is. My email address is my name and I use it to keep my emails secure and not snooped on by Google etc.
Proton advertises itself as private, secure and encrypted. It does not claim to offer anonymity.
All valid points made in an academic setting. I think the general consensus, and the points other users are trying to make, involve more transparency and proper presenting of the facts in their statements. I have parroted the "oh you should try proton, they're more private and secure" to other people. This is a factual but misleading statement without the nuance of higher OPSEC fundamentals.
Just look at their main landing page for proton mail.
Proton Mail's end-to-end encryption and zero-access encryption ensure only you can see your emails. Not even Proton can view the content of your emails and attachments.
Proton Mail protects you from these digital spies and prevents companies from monitoring you.
your data is protected by some of the world's strictest privacy laws.
From newsrooms, activists, and international organizations to academics, Nobel Prize winners, and movie characters, Proton Mail is the trusted choice for secure and private communication. Join over 100 million people worldwide who believe their online privacy is worth protecting.
A common user will look at this and believe that by just having this account, they will be protected. There is no asterisk* beside e-mail recovery explaining the dangers of linking to another e-mail. In fact, a lot of their services promote linking e-mail because you can't use third party verification if you haven't setup your recovery e-mail and/or cell phone verification. I ran into this trying to help an older relative who's paranoid about online accounts, ended up being more hoops and they were dissuaded because it always come down to "enter more information to continue...privately ;)"
The front landing page should have a section explaining everything that's being said here with vpn's, alternative e-mails, and how to really protect yourself with anonymity. To a lot of people, Private+Secure=Anonymous. It's not accurate, but unless you already know the things you have to do to protect your identity, it's not very clear on what the average person should do.
Maybe also just consider any email insecure by default ? Like it's fcking email, having privacy, let alone security or anonymity is just like trying to mod a skateboard into a secure highway vehicule imho
It looks more like multiple companies were needed to pin the individual. I don't expect any company to not comply with legal requests. My understanding is this is why it's important to know what information a company retains.
For my own use, I have used Proton just to mitigate being a source of ad info and to get better service. I'm not interesting enough to overthrow anything.
Most info came from the fact that they made the move to link their personal iCloud Mail as a recovery method.
Infinite wisdom.
All the commenters suggesting that Proton is just a company and would always give in to legal requests and all other companies and any email provider would do the same, here's some more to add. Yesterday I saw a now invalid toot comment from ProtonPrivacy on Mastodon Social where they wrote that it was Apple who was to blame and that Proton gave the recovery email address only because this was a case of a terrorism suspect suggesting that if that (terrorism) was not the case they would not have given in to the request. Today their comment sadly gives a 404 error. Searching a bit further this article comes up mentioning Proton and Wire :
In the new resolution, the National Audience judge recalls that in January, in a judicial report he issued on the case, he highlighted a conversation from July 12th and 13th, 2020, about the king's visits, which was included in the Tsunami investigative evidence, and of which he admits that until that point he had not made reference in his investigation which extends over the period from 2016 to 2022. Specifically, one of the people under investigation, the Girona businessperson Josep Campmajó, spoke to the figure named Xuxu Rondinaire, with profile @marietadelulllviu, about mobilizations in 2019, using the Wire messenger app. The judge has asked for the identification of this person, information now obtained by the Civil Guard, which details that they used Europol to ask the Swiss authorities for the Wire firm to identify the person behind this pseudonym, with a profile that is also used in Proton Mail, an encrypted email system. In the police cooperation form requesting the information, the Spanish officers indicate to the Swiss authorities that the investigation is for the crime of terrorism.
@lemmyreader Yes, the name/address of the terrorism suspect was actually given to police by Apple, not Proton. The terror suspect added their real-life Apple email as an optional recovery address in Proton Mail. Proton can't decrypt data, but in terror cases Swiss courts can obtain recovery email.
Proton is a service provider, not your confederate.
Not really news. Proton follows the law. If they get a Swiss court order they will comply.
If you want to do illegal (under Swiss law) things, proton won't cover you.
Proton is not for activism. Treat it as bad as Gmail or outlook for that. Moon Of Alabama blog has lots of criticisms. If you want to be anal about using email for activism and whistleblowing, use a serious provider like Riseup or Disroot. All these Protons and Tutanotas are useless. They are only better than Gmail and Outlook.
There are some idiots that spread nonsense about me that I am paranoid or whatever. Yes I am proud of it, because they are the incompetent ones. Big Tech "security" shills and a lot of kiddies without experience do this.
Edit: I will take the liberty of recommending digdeeper's blog for email providers.
Not sure how they’re better than proton is terms of compliance and anonymity
How to tell you know nothing about privacy, security and anonymity without telling me that directly. Proton is a fucking snitch for activists.
Source: trust me bro
It’s just that more people use proton so more of them have their identity leaked. I don’t see how the terms of these 2 companies are better
Are you trying to discredit Riseup and Disroot without evidence? Are you a fed by any chance, or a nasty troll? You can go read digdeeper's blog on email providers. If you disagree, you may continue to deny, troll and get banned for speaking nonsense.
I’ve never heard of those 2 providers and they don’t seem to be any better. I’m just looking for facts to back that and so far I haven’t seen any
Being skeptical doesn’t mean being a troll or a fed, wtf. I don’t know what you’re on but it seems cool
As for the « are you trying to discredit … without evidence » I want to answer « what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence »
I’ve never heard of those 2 providers and they don’t seem to be any better.
You never heard of the other two providers but yet you already draw the conclusion that they don't seem to be better. What does "better" mean to you in this context ?
Their privacy policy. They log IP addresses and are not immune to legal actions, and as such, are not really better than Proton in terms of legal actions
Their privacy policy. They log IP addresses and are not immune to legal actions, and as such, are not really better than Proton in terms of legal actions
They log IP addresses ? Source ?
Source: the 3 first words of my comment…
https://disroot.org/en/privacy_policy Section 4.1
You’re the ones defending a service yet you don’t know that. Seems like someone who just found out the service can do better research. But hey, thanks for not being overly aggressive and claiming to know everything like this other guy.
the two you suggested though are US based though. they'd also have to answer to court orders right?
the two you suggested though are US based though.
Disroot is in Europe.
They both have a clean track record and are funded purely by activists and dissidents.
okay but court orders tho? not immune, just like proton. also they can be administered gag orders(think lavabit), unlike proton
proton is untrustable
Email is untrustable
This is the second time, somehow people still defend them.
This isn't the second time, Proton complies with Swiss law regularly.