I don't think it's an "or" situation. They are both.
this post was submitted on 08 May 2024
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Maybe I'm missing some nuance of the word but if they believe the stuff because they are gullible... isn't that what makes them the victim?
The gullible often become victims. I don't understand the distinction you're making. Between personal failing and societal failing? They feed into each other. Both warrant correction.
It happens with liberals, too. Having said that, people really do need to go outside, get away from the 24/7 media feed, talk to actual people, and apply some critical thinking on their own. None of us is the main character.
I'm the main character, obviously, why else would the sun revolve around the earth? Purely to honor me the main character, reincarnated in this dying world to save it from the demon lord known as See Oh Too, and its generals Shell, BP, and Chevron. /S
save it from the demon lord known as See Oh Too, and its generals Shell, BP, and Chevron.
HOORAY!
/S
...oh :(
I for one am done trying to empathize with and understand regressives. Its not complex. They are children, plain and simple. Developmentally they are children. When you give the car keys to your 7 year old the results are predictable. Their only actual ideology is they want everything they want right now, always. They operate on pure emotional reactivity and have no semblance of actual morality, ethics, or even a plan moving forward. I want what I want right now. The way to deal with these folks is literally square one kindergarten shit.
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Do you like when your brother hits you?
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Thats not yours!
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You need to share
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Etc.....ad nauseum
Donald speaks and behaves at a 5th grade level and hes their fucking messiah. He SPEAKS at their level, speaks TO them in a way they understand. Their religion teaches them not to grow up. "My FATHER in heaven"........" We are the CHILDREN of god"..…..... They see the world as big, complex, and scary and desperately want a parent, a father figure to make everything alright. People overthink this shit. Conservatives are children and need to be treated as such before they burn down the world.
When you stop empathizing with people, you've taken a step toward dehumanizing them. You aren't under any obligation to empathize, and goodness knows it is tiring. However, it is important to realize that once you stop empathizing, you are more likely to accept extreme solutions in a subconscious attempt to resolve your frustration.
Sympathize? Sure. To empathize would be me taking on the burden of their mental illness. Not healthy for anyone involved. To sympathize requires understanding. I understand them, they are children. Do we dehumanize children or use "extreme solutions" on children? No we dont, however we treat them appropriately......as children and we'd be negligent to give children the car keys.
You have simultaneously also described why you can't easily unite a left-leaning base. My issue is obviously the most important (and so is everyone else's to them) at every moment. Also if you are a rep you are honor bound to resign and recuse and be a perfect parent of the children in the other camp.
Yes, we can walk and chew gum, but you can't chase every car in the lot at the same time and you can't shoot yourself in the leg out of honor when the competition is going to shoot your other leg for spite.
Depending on your definitions (empathy, sympathy, and compassion are often confusingly defined and contradictory between dictionaries), you ARE empathizing by realizing they are mental children. You're just not sympathizing and therefore deciding no longer to act with compassion, which makes plenty of sense to me.
IMHO it's good to empathize with the right (understand your attacker), but it's also important have to understand that whatever the underlying reasons, these people, when activated into an idiot army they become a dangerous group.
The definitions that make the most sense to me is
Empathy - understanding the perspective of another, where there desires and fears come from. It takes intelligence to not just project one's own personality on everyone else and understand that they are different.
Sympathy - Feeling in sync with another (like when you speak of sympathetic guitar strings causing each other to vibrate). Like you see the bombing in Gaza and not just understand that they don't want to be bombed (empathy), but imagining the pain of losing your child.
Compassion - The positive treatment of another due to having sympathy for them
I think you have the words the other way around
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I'd put them on the same level of victimhood as followers of people like Charles Manson. They probably wouldn't have done what they did without his influence but they're still culpable for the damage they've caused.
People should grow up and take responsibility for their lives.
That's the main thing.
A grown up, responsible person can have opinions, and can change their opinions.
A grown up, responsible person can spend their day as they want, and can also understand that it is probably unhealthy to watch news a whole day long.
A grown up, responsible person can utter a rant when it feels neccessary, and can also apologize afterwards if someone got hurt from it.
People should grow up and take responsibility for their lives.
We SHOULD all get free unicorns too.
But if you actually want to fix the problem, as opposed to just should'ing it, that requires that we see these people as victims. And this means we don't blame the victim, we help them with their situation.
The wonderful part about the train of thought that you've started, is that eventually you realize that people not only need to take responsibility for their own lives, but also need to take responsibility for the society they impose on other people's lives. And if we're unhappy with that society, we have to actively do something about it. That is our responsibility. Just as much as it's our responsibility to fix ourselves.
Should. But its not like we can force them to grow up and become responsible.
But its not like we can force them to grow up
But should you?
Are you responsible for their life?
No. But I am responsible for my own and my friends and family's safety.
So what is right, is it to let these be free to indoctrinate themselves into hating me and my fellow humans and spreading harmful beliefs until theres no room for our kind? Or is it to police what they are allowed to consume and become the fascist I didnt want these gullible fools to become? Also if we did, how long until someone turned it around on us: Declared themselves the less gullible ones and worthy of policing what we should watch?
Assuming most humans means well and want good, we'd always outnumber and outvote those who are fool enough to believe in the hate. But seeing politicians who demonstrately and openly want the worst towards certain people, somehow manage to get voted into leadership of one of the most influental countries in the world.. It has shaken my belief in that tolerance will win out in a democracy.
People should grow up and take responsibility for their lives.
This is something on I don't agree at all with liberals. When people are manipulated by cult-like technique (or even (social) media optimized to give their brain a fix of dopamine) it's not about their individual responsiblity but the responsiblity of the assholes manipulating them.
Mansons followers murdered at his direction. Your "logic" would have them get off scot free. Only manson is culpable.
No - a shorter sentence than the man himself, though.
This is something on I don't agree at all with liberals.
Is it only liberals in your country who think so?
Or are they bigots looking for confirmation bias?
Being abnormally gullible can be a symptom of some types of mental health issues. Extremely gullible people, especially, deserve compassion.
Does their gullibility somehow diminish their victimhood? Gullible doesn't mean they're malicious, it just means they're easily misled. If anything, if they're "just gullible" we should be even less hostile towards them, and more towards the propaganda machine (because it is) that's feeding them their misinformation.
Tldr "In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence"
"willing victimhood" is certainly a thing.
there a victim as not everyone is the same and there's always unknown mental disorders some people have or exposed to lead that fucked there brain up, poor childhood, other reasons.
People are not born evil. Nobody just is born and wants others to die. All of it is a learned trait and often times from these organizations is how these evil things spread.
They are gullible because there a victim of The propaganda and what they learned (usually by force without consent) growing up.
Saying people are dumb or need to "grow up" just is another way to put it into aggressive "us vs them" mindsets.
Nobody is born to be evil or cruel. No body. It is learned behavior and we should destroy the organization and practices that create these behaviors regardless of what political side there on. (Although conservative ones have the absolute worst ones though)
I think the "people are free to believe what they want to believe" is a mistake. This is the very statement that relativitises opinions and belief systems with facts and creates the illusion that they are all equal.
Look at the "facts don't care about feelings" crowd that believe wholeheartedly that statements pandering to their feelings are facts and disregard any actual facts as fake news. I don't think it's because they decided one day to pick and choose what is a fact and what is not, but they actually can't tell that there is a difference in opinions, beliefs and facts in the first place.
People need to accept that sometimes the truth is painful, that it contradicts what you want it to be, and worst of all - that you may have been wrong.
Edit: that said, I think people are free to believe whatever they want to believe when it comes to unprovable existential esoterica like personal values, afterlife, religion, whatever. As long they accept it is a personal belief and not an universal truth.
Blame is not a finite resource. Just because 2 people are involved doesn't mean they're both 50% to blame — they can both be 100% at fault.
So to answer your question, the person is responsible for their onerous views. They chose to watch that trash and believe it. We can have compassion for them without absolving them of blame. At the same time, they are a victim of the people lying to them. So it's fine to blame the person consuming the bullshit and the person producing the bullshit, and the fact that there are 2 people to blame doesn't make either of them any less to blame.
They are falling for engagement strategies all news media outlets use. They will say things that pander to a specific group pointing the finger at the other side so you'll stuck with their station. Both liberal and conservative sites do this. Journalism is dead
Why would you think they all do it for the same reason?
Don't know that I'd characterize it as being "victims", their media outlets have chosen to fuel anxiety and anger that was already there.
The media is culpable for pouring fuel on the fire, but the fire was already there. They are emboldened to be loud since they find such loud agreement from media and online, but they already were thinking the same basic things.
"If somebody spends the whole day watching fox or religious propaganda, gets worked up and all he can think of is owning a liberal or converting an unbeliever, is this person a victim or just gullible?"
Neither. Such folks (Along with their "enemies" on the opposite end of the sociocultural continuum, who get all of their intell from The Daily Show and Vox)are case studies in the willfull devolution of modern humans. The sooner all of them guzzle down a gallon of Draino each, the saner this planet will be
Think that anyone who would find that stuff compelling is not in a good place emotionally or mentally. Now, ideally they should be pulled out of that, and you do occasionally hear stories about people leaving extremist groups like Qanon because they found a healthy hobby or community. On the other hand, I don't think humans can really be separated cleanly between victim and victimizer, and the people this questions describing often become a danger to other people.
discussions like this always bring me back to the Dead Kennedy's song Stars and Stripes of Corruption
Not only is the music one of their greatest, but the lyrics are Jello Biafra's best. If you have never heard it, imagine surf guitar, fast pace and a poet that can unleash lyrics at bullet speeds while staying in tone and driving the beat. The end of their career finale and IMO their magnum opus. The lyrics are just so good. Here is one part that I really think about alot...
But what can just one of us do
Against all that money and power trying to crush us into roaches?
We won't destroy society in a day
Until we change ourselves first from the inside out
We can start by not lying so much and treating other people like dirt
It's so easy not to base our lives on how much we can scam
And you know it feels good to lift that monkey off our back
Too great a tune not to include a link for the uninitiated!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=983DwAOCXRI
The end of their career finale
Apart from Bedtime for Democracy (SaSoC is on Frankenchrist) ;-)
Bedtime is good but it's the post breakup album haha so does it really count?
Fair point :-)
Why can’t they keep their opinions to themselves?
Freedom of speech?
"Why don't you keep your non cis het stuff to yourself" is something I hear often from that side. We should be better than that
Freedom of speech guarantees the federal government won't be able to mete out punishment for speech. It does not mean that anyone can say whatever, wherever, whenever. Social consequences for speech are fair game, as long as those consequences don't themselves rise to misdemeanor or crime.
People affected by confirmation bias are NEVER VICTIMS.
Im athiest but I have no issue with conversation as long as its polite. I would regularly discuss christianity with a nice old lady who was a jehovas witness. she handed out slips but was not pushy or rude. I would discuss and even said I would for the sake of conversation assume the bible is real. She took my views in stride that you would think would upset someone from such a fundamentalist faith. If people did not want to talk to her though she did not bother them or such.
Stupidity is a moral flaw, not an intellectual one.
They aren't victims, but they wish they were. They're awful people who want to be openly awful to others to feel better about themselves, and fox "news" lets them indulge their awful impulses and emboldens them to be the awful people they want to be. Then when they get confronted for being awful, they play the victim instead of learning to live and let live.
Obviously this isn't true of all fox viewers or religious people, but I have been thinking about this lately as our new dynamic. It's not supposedly about the best way to help people anymore (and what we can/can't or should/shouldn't do), it's now one side that still supposedly wants to help people and one that has given up the pretense entirely and only stands for cruelty.
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