this post was submitted on 09 Apr 2024
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If I had a nickel every time I see meme that is just some anime characters with linux world logos slapped on them...
All image macros are are random pictures with text on them
Steam Linux Runtime is based on Debian Stable releases. It's literally the Why Not Both? meme.
Where does valve use Arch? because i thought steamOS was a fork of Debian , and i am kinda confused by the meme
SteamOS before 3.0 was based on Debian, but with 3.0 they decided to move away from Debian and now use (immutable) Arch.
The Steam Deck runs Arch
Making a proprietary operating system is not the right decision. It's unethical to take away people's ability to control their own devices.
How does Valve prevent you from controlling your own device? Their version of Linux isn't locked down, you can fully customize it like any Linux afaik.
Their system (and the Steam client) is proprietary, which means you can't easily see what the software does or change it. If you can't control the software then you don't control the device. People deserve to have the 4 essential freedoms. This is why Windows is bad and it's the same with SteamOS.
SteamOS is only bad when you expect it to support a variety of hardware. They promised to release it as a standalone and it's still not there yet, too bad.
You are correct about Steam client though. Even if they keep the internals closed, the GUI part alone would be worth forking. I wish a chrome-less version would exist.
Steam Deck is a computer, so its users deserve to have full control over it just like their PC or smartphone.
You are correct about Steam client though. Even if they keep the internals closed, the GUI part alone would be worth forking. I wish a chrome-less version would exist.
If people can't easily modify it, then its developers have power over users. You have to trust that they will not abuse that power, but they already do - with DRM for example.
Can you explain what parts of SteamOS are not controllable in a way that makes it more restricted than Arch, which it is based on?
with DRM for example
[If the account owns the game - allow user to download and run the game] is a DRM sure... But it's kind of fair, no?
Can you explain what parts of SteamOS are not controllable in a way that makes it more restricted than Arch, which it is based on?
Valve won't release the source code and I don't use it, so it's hard for me to tell which packages are proprietary and which are not. Steam client for sure is proprietary and it comes with the OS. Arch by default is Free Software (other than proprietary blobs in the kernel) and you can audit what each program does and modify it. With SteamOS you can't do that, because Valve keeps secrets from you on your own device.
[If the account owns the game - allow user to download and run the game] is a DRM sure… But it’s kind of fair, no?
To play any game you have to install and run the proprietary Steam client and be logged in to an account. Even to play singleplayer games. Even if you bought a physical disc. There are stores that don't do this: gog.com and itch.io. They provide an optional client for convenience, but you can just download a game's installer from the website and install it on any PC any time you want. In case of Itch the client is Free Software so anyone can see what it does and modify it.
Valve won't release the source code
That doesn't mean you can't control how it works. Most people don't need sources of their Linux distros to use them as they want. It would be cool to have the source, but you wouldn't expect them to have an official maintained repo since they spend much more resources on actual hardware that needs this distro.
Steam client for sure is proprietary and it comes with the OS
Yeah it seems to also be the only thing that is proprietary in SteamOS too.
To play any game you have to install and run the proprietary Steam client and be logged in to an account.
Are you clueless or what? There are too many ways to do what you want with SteamOS. You can use offline mode, desktop mode, play pirated games in any mode, install any controller software you like. Finally, install another Linux distro on it, or Windows. But people buy Deck because of SteamOS mostly since it creates the intended (and expected) experience.
Wanna know why we aren't seeing many enthusiasts creating more handheld frontends for platforms like Deck? Yeah, not at all because the platform is locked behind DRM or other bs. But because the best experience most people expect is already available and it becomes better with updates.
That doesn’t mean you can’t control how it works. Most people don’t need sources of their Linux distros to use them as they want.
You can't easily make changes to a program without the source code or even check what it does. Most people are not programmers, so others study the code and make the necessary changes for them.
It would be cool to have the source, but you wouldn’t expect them to have an official maintained repo since they spend much more resources on actual hardware that needs this distro.
This is not an excuse. What they are doing is unethical. They put themselves in a position of power over their users. Not much different from Microsoft or Apple.
Yeah it seems to also be the only thing that is proprietary in SteamOS too.
I don't know if that's true. But the Linux kernel is proprietary as well (just like the one in Arch) - it contains binary blobs without the source code.
Are you clueless or what? There are too many ways to do what you want with SteamOS. You can use offline mode, desktop mode, play pirated games in any mode, install any controller software you like.
I was explaining to you how DRM works and why it's wrong, since apparently you have no idea. I don't know why you are listing features that any popular desktop operating system has (even Windows). SteamOS is still proprietary, which makes it unethical.
Finally, install another Linux distro on it, or Windows. But people buy Deck because of SteamOS mostly since it creates the intended (and expected) experience.
If you buy a Windows laptop, you can install any operating system on it too. That doesn't make Windows ethical.
You can't easily make changes to a program
99% users won't ever need that. For cases when they do, they can find guides, modify settings or install software that does what they want.
This is not an excuse. What they are doing is unethical.
People don't need an excuse. They play their games and that's it.
it contains binary blobs without the source code
Any distro you download can do this exact thing and you wouldn't know for a long period, unless you spend enough time to compile the whole thing yourself, compare and research.
I was explaining to you how DRM works and why it's wrong
I consider myself knowledgeable but you surely chose a wrong example to teach people about DRM. Try some denuvo or eac maybe.
If you buy a Windows laptop, you can install any operating system on it too. That doesn't make Windows ethical.
Whatever that means, users don't care about it. Compared to others, Valve provides a lot more value in most of their solutions. They are hackable just enough to satisfy most enthusiasts.
99% users won’t ever need that. For cases when they do, they can find guides, modify settings or install software that does what they want.
You could make the same excuse for Windows.
Any distro you download can do this exact thing and you wouldn’t know for a long period, unless you spend enough time to compile the whole thing yourself, compare and research.
You don't have to compile to know this. You can find the list of fully free distros here: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html . Debian removes those blobs too, but it's not on that list for other reasons.
I consider myself knowledgeable but you surely chose a wrong example to teach people about DRM. Try some denuvo or eac maybe.
That's DRM too and there are many more examples. Blu-ray also contains DRM. And so do most PC games thanks to Valve. Console games on the other hand usually don't have DRM when you buy a physical copy.
Whatever that means, users don’t care about it. Compared to others, Valve provides a lot more value in most of their solutions. They are hackable just enough to satisfy most enthusiasts.
I know that most people don't care about their freedom, privacy or security. Most people use Windows. But this doesn't stop us from trying to build a better world for ourselves and to try to convince others to care.
You don't have to compile to know this. You can find the list of fully free distros here: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
The distros being removed from this list mostly by requests from maintainers means it's not actively monitored or researched at all. So by not verifying it you put yourself on a mercy of other people. It will fail, if not already.
Console games on the other hand usually don't have DRM when you buy a physical copy.
That's because you have to use consoles to even read them. They contain hardware DRM and are far from being ethical.
But this doesn't stop us from trying to build a better world for ourselves and to try to convince others to care.
Am I missing something or you're thinking that starting with least offenders is a good idea?
The distros being removed from this list mostly by requests from maintainers means it’s not actively monitored or researched at all. So by not verifying it you put yourself on a mercy of other people. It will fail, if not already.
What are you talking about? It's a list made by the Free Software Foundation. What was removed? If some information is incorrect, you should be able to prove it.
That’s because you have to use consoles to even read them. They contain hardware DRM and are far from being ethical.
I don't know what hardware DRM means, but they use proprietary software, so you are right that they are unethical. I never said they were.
Am I missing something or you’re thinking that starting with least offenders is a good idea?
I don't know what you mean.
What was removed?
Check the Historical section.
I don't know what hardware DRM means
It means hardware modules like chips containing the code that you'll have to do a lot of work to even dump, before trying to interpret and make use of it. Physical games also mostly use storage that degrades over time and I consider it another form of DRM.
I don't know what you mean.
Why do you bash Valve but not any other company like Apple, Nvidia etc?
Check the Historical section.
Those distros are just not being developed anymore, so they are no longer recommended.
Why do you bash Valve but not any other company like Apple, Nvidia etc?
I do. I will never buy anything from those companies.
Those distros are just not being developed anymore, so they are no longer recommended.
If they would actively monitor all listed distros they wouldn't need to be messaged by maintainers for a distro to get delisted. This means they don't do monitoring. Someone just compiled a list and called it recommendations. It doesn't seem to add anything to the whole process of making sure that public downloads contain only ethical code, if there is even such a thing.
I do. I will never buy anything from those companies.
Your comment history doesn't show that. Only a couple of comments about Nvidia, no real thoughts about Apple. But you made at least 2 posts about Valve and oh boy some of your takes on them show you don't really understand what you're talking about.
Just because they made steam start on boot. Doesn't mean you can't control your device...
Steam (and other parts of SteamOS) is non free software, it can do anything on your system and there is no easy way for you to change that or even know what it does. Valve developers put themselves in a position of power over you. They keep secrets from you on your own device. This in itself is unethical, but they also abuse their users with DRM. How can you say that you have control in this case?
DRM is what publishers and developers want. If Valve didn't have DRM they wouldn't be anywhere near as big as they are today. The influx of developers happened when Steam released their DRM for the public.
And that makes it ethical? DRM-free stores exist: gog.com and itch.io for example.
They are not DRM free. They verify your ownership before letting you download games.
They are DRM-free. I can send you a copy of those games and you can run them on your computer. Without you having to log in anywhere or install an additional proprietary application. Without anyone verifying anything. Isn't that amazing?
By that definition Steam is DRM free too. I can download tons of my games, pack and send them to you and they'll work. My rough estimate is that about half of all games are like that. Half of the remaining games rely on Steam environment for community or multiplayer functionality.
Some games on Steam are DRM-free and you can play them without running Steam. That is good, but you still need the proprietary Steam client to download them and Steam doesn't tell you which games have DRM before you buy them. gog.com and itch.io prove that this can be done better.
but you still need the proprietary Steam client to download them
You do. But hey you end up with DRM free games you like so much. By the way why so you even want games? Aren't most of them unethical?
gog.com and itch.io prove that this can be done better.
Gog offline installers are also unethical, no?
You do. But hey you end up with DRM free games you like so much.
But to get there I have to use unethical proprietary software that I hate so much.
By the way why so you even want games? Aren’t most of them unethical?
Who said I do?
Gog offline installers are also unethical, no?
Of course. This is why itch.io is better than gog.
But to get there I have to use unethical proprietary software that I hate so much.
Have to use that to get more unethical software. I see no problem.
Who said I do?
Games don't come with the source code. It's unethical software by your definition.
This is why itch.io is better than gog.
Do they provide ethical installers?
Didn't I read somewhere they were considering using NixOS instead of messing with unstable Arch and forcing it do stuff it wasn't made for?
Anti Commercial AI thingy
CC BY-NC-SA 4.0
Anti Commercial AI thingy
Just out of curiosity, do you think that licensing your posts under CC BY-NC-SA 4.0 makes it illegal to use them to train an AI? If so, why do you think that? I post GPL licensed code online, so I'm interested in this topic.
If you write code, you might be aware of the AI coding assistants out there. Most notable is probably Github's Copilot. Well, that AI assistant has an ongoing case against it to answer the question you're asking. So, just like you add a GPL (or other) license to your code, creative commons licenses are for text and media that aren't code and I add it to my comments.
Whether they will have an impact has yet to be determined, so we'll see if creative commons with a non-commercial clause is for naught or not.
Anti Commercial AI thingy
CC BY-NC-SA 4.0
Inserted with a keystroke running this script on linux with X11
#!/usr/bin/env nix-shell
#!nix-shell -i bash --packages xautomation xclip
sleep 0.2
(echo ' spoiler Anti Commercial AI thingy
[CC BY-NC-SA 4.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/)
Inserted with a keystroke running this script on linux with X11
```bash'
cat "$0"
echo '```
:::') | xclip -selection clipboard
xte "keydown Control_L" "key V" "keyup Control_L"
:::
Anything you write should be proprietary by default. So I don't think you have to add this license to your comments just to achieve your goal. But it makes sense if you also want to give some extra rights to people.
If AI reads your code, but the output is something entirely different, why would that be illegal? Isn't that the same as a human reading something? I'm curious what the courts will decide, though.
I don't want to help Microsoft, but some of the arguments made in that article are strange. If AI means the end of software licenses, that means the end of copyright, which is a good thing. When AI gets better, we might be able to feed it leaked or decompiled source code and get something that we can legally use. That's not the current situation, though. At the moment Microsoft uses libre, copylefted software to improve their proprietary program and that's bad. But I don't think we can do anything about it other than telling people to not use it.
My stance is just staunchly anti-commercial and I would rather see a non-commercial AI be allowed to use my text than a commercial one. Whether copyright law will reflect that is hitherto unknown - at least in the EU and the US, I think. Japan has already made a ruling that copyright doesn't exist for AI - or so I understand it. IANAL
If AI reads your code, but the output is something entirely different, why would that be illegal? Isn’t that the same as a human reading something?
That line of reasoning is logical, however copyright has never made any sense to me. "Likeness" can be copyrighted. Copying a copyrighted work is not allowed, but coming up with a solution that is nigh identical to another in a "clean room" is legal. Using old black and white mickey mouse is now public domain, but adding color suddenly makes it illegal. Learning something proprietary on the job and using it immediately at another employer is illegal but wait a year and it's legal even though the old employer never updated the solution.
It makes no sense to me and doesn't seem logical at all 🤷 Laws are like scientific models: attempts at making sense of the world. Some are better than others.
Anti Commercial AI thingy
CC BY-NC-SA 4.0
Inserted with a keystroke running this script on linux with X11
#!/usr/bin/env nix-shell
#!nix-shell -i bash --packages xautomation xclip
sleep 0.2
(echo ' spoiler Anti Commercial AI thingy
[CC BY-NC-SA 4.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/)
Inserted with a keystroke running this script on linux with X11
```bash'
cat "$0"
echo '```
:::') | xclip -selection clipboard
xte "keydown Control_L" "key V" "keyup Control_L"
:::