this post was submitted on 17 Apr 2024
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They're openly allowing illegal immigrants to vote in federal elections now in Arizona. (i.redd.it)
submitted 7 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Only US citizens can vote in US federal elections. That is a federal restriction which is not impacted by this.

This is adding an additional requirement to show proof of citizenship before even being allowed to cast a vote.

According to this, people cannot vote for local or state level issues if they do not show a passport, birth certificate, certificate of citizenship, or other such document. Pretty sure drivers licenses and state issues IDs are not proof of citizenship, so a lot of people are probably going to be surprised when they show up and are not allowed to vote for governor, state legislature, etc because they don't have the right documentation.

This makes voting more restrictive, not less.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 7 months ago (3 children)

How do you check that they are citizens without proof of citizenship?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Does any country require proof? In Canada you just need an ID that confirms your name and address. No proof of citizenship is necessary. It's illegal for a non citizen to vote, but proof isn't necessary in order to vote.

The reason proof isn't required is because Canada doesn't issue proof of citizenship to all citizens. How can the government require people provide proof of citizenship if the government doesn't ensure all citizens have proof of citizenship?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

We dont actually have a list of citizens. There is no way of knowing without proof of citizenship. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/the-supreme-courts-big-data-problem-118568/

Canada does have a list of citizens, thats the difference.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Canada does have a list of citizens

I've never heard of that. I'd be interested if you have a source.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago

Those look like immigration records. Natural born citizens wouldn't be found there. The page also says the records aren't proof of citizenship but oddly can be used for employment or government purposes (I'm not sure what other purposes you'd use it for?).

No list is needed since someone is a Canadian citizen if they meet the definition in the Citizenship Act, not if their name is on a list.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

This is a guess, but I am assuming that when people register to vote (since that is not automatic, but rather an opt-in right in the United States), the person's information is sent to the local board of elections that can perform a search for the citizenship status of that individual.

I would expect the Arizona to already know if an individual is a citizen or not, so this requirement is more about preventing votes rather than securing the integrity of the voting process.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

We dont actually have a list of citizens. There is no way of knowing without proof of citizenship. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/the-supreme-courts-big-data-problem-118568/

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago

I was thinking more that the documentation provided when registering to vote would be verified, not that a person would be looked up in a large centralized list.

But that was just a guess, the board of elections may just ruberstamp all requests for all I know about their processes.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

SSN

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

SSN doesn’t prove citizenship.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

Please explain. The question is how do you prove citizenship without proof of citizenship. One way would be SSN.

Obviously it’s not officially recognized as proof of citizenship, but that wasn’t the question.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Anyone eligible for work in the US is provided with a SSN because all workers pay taxes and SSN are used to track tax payments.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Yeah see at least there you’re proving you’re allowed to be here and work legally.

Never said it was perfect, but to my knowledge it’s the best alternative, which is the question I was answering.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

SSN doesn’t prove citizenship. My friend has a social and she isn’t a citizen.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Once again, that wasn’t the question.

The question was how can it be proved without proof?

That’s probably the next best answer.

If you disagree, what alternative would you suggest?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Passports show citizenship

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Passports also cost money. Using those would effectively paywall voting.

Or the US Government could start paying for it from our taxes and provide one to everyone.

You also need proof of citizenship to get a passport, so it’s not much of a solution here.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You also need proof of citizenship to get a passport, so it’s not much of a solution here

Birth certificate

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Right but the question is how else to prove citizenship without that. We’re going in circles now.

And unless your parents kept it in good condition on your behalf until you were old enough to keep it, it costs time and money for a replacement. Once again, paywalling the voting process.

I could get down with your suggestion to use passports, provided they’re not paywalled when you need a new one.

Alternatively we could use SSN and either allow those that are not citizens but pay taxes to vote, or update the SSN system to differentiate between citizens and non-citizens. It’s our best and most complete db of American citizens, which is why I bring it up again. It would require the least effort to use in this way.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 months ago

Did you click the link right there? Did you see the requirements to register to vote?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I think you got it backwards.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago

It reads really strange.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Here's the website where it also says

A person must be a U.S. citizen in order to register and vote.

So, let's say, somehow someone that isn't a U.S. citizen votes in an Arizona election for a federal office, say...the president. How will that be verified?

Well, first of all, this is Arizona we're talking about, which barely went to Biden during the 2020 election. So there are plenty of "election integrity" watchers or whatever they liken themselves to be. And, for this to be a concern, an immigrant or several, documented or otherwise, would want to jeopardize their chance in the U.S. to vote in an election at the federal level under the conspiracy-addled eye of Arizona republicans. Because if they're undocumented, they will almost certainly be deported. If they are documented, their legal status could be stripped, and they still be deported.

And for what? To be a lone vote in a sea of 150 million to decide the presidency?

Conservatives are wild with their fears. Immigrants are both desperate to trek hundreds of miles through treacherous territory for life in the country on a hill, only to risk it all for the most insignificant method of tipping the scales in a federal election.

Your imaginary villains are irrational.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

And for what? To be a lone vote in a sea of 150 million to decide the presidency?

7.2 million votes in 3 years

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

What? 7.2 million votes of what in 3 years?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

7.2 illegal immigrants

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

From what I can tell, is that 7.2 million immigrants have been released into the U.S. under Biden's administration.

But the proportion of that 7.2 million outside of Arizona are irrelevant in this conversation. They're not voting in Arizona. And what I said earlier applies to the proportion that are in Arizona.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Sure, not all of them would be in Arizona, but some would be. And without checking, how do you enforce the voting requirements?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

how do you enforce the voting requirements?

I guess we're both going to learn something today, because, as of writing this, I have no idea. So let's dig in! Assuming a non-citizen immigrant attempts to vote in Arizona, how do they enforce voting requirements, namely, that only U.S. citizens vote in federal elections?

My first thought is the process of voting itself.

First, the non-U.S. citizen immigrant must register to vote. Pretty hard to do for someone that isn't a U.S. citizen, a resident of Arizona, and isn't 18+ years old.. Proof of citizen is required merely for registering. So, unless mistakes happen, then all registered voters in Arizona are U.S. citizens.

Right, but the picture above says it's not required. In that case, you're given the Federal Voter Registration Form (this is the same link shown at the bottom of OP's pic). When you get the PDF it asks for an ID #:

Federal law requires that states collect from each registrant an identification number. You must refer to your state's specific instructions for item 6 regarding information on what number is acceptable for your state. If you have neither a drivers license nor a social security number, please indicate this on the form and a number will be assigned to you by your state.

If I were an election auditor, my first thought would be to look at box 6 for "None".

Holy crap, this is beyond confusing. If I were a non-citizen immigrant willing to throw away my opportunity in the U.S., I'd be racking my brain about how to vote for Biden to open the border. Because, this is tough. You should try it. Walk through the steps of registering to vote. Even on the federal voter registration for it explicitly says:

To register in Arizona you must:

• be a citizen of the United States

• be a resident of Arizona and your county at least 29 days preceding the next election

• be 18 years old on or before the next general election

• not have been convicted of treason or a felony (or have had your civil rights restored)

• not currently be declared an incapacitated person by a court of law

So, like...are they going to ask for proof of citizenship anyway? Super unclear.

A better question is how are non-citizen immigrants voting in Arizona in the first place? lol

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago

Ok, thanks for looking into it.

If I were a non-citizen immigrant willing to throw away my opportunity in the U.S.

Immigrants, illegal or not, dont get deported for committing crimes.

A better question is how are non-citizen immigrants voting in Arizona in the first place

I would presume just like anyone else, and hope no one checks.