chapotraphouse

inb4 he reluctantly admits azov is just out-and-out fash, but then immediately shifts goalpost to "ok but there's a big fash problem in the russian army too, you know" (aka the 'my dad')

Meanwhile on r/NonCredibleDefense:

It turns out one of my friends is Putler shill Tankie type

Shouldn't have said anything, now I'm getting paragraphs upon paragraphs about ZelenSSkyy and how Putler has a moral obligation to eradicate the freedom loving Azov Slavas in Ukraine

Ask them if the leftist position is to set alight trade union buildings with people in them.

TBH that's annoying but not a huge deal. It's a pretty standard opinion if you have no history education (99% of Americans).
Now, if they're also pro-Israel...

Ukraine is the true litmus test for leftists when it comes to international geopolitics.

You will really find out which of those who call themselves leftists will be the ones doing the bidding for imperialists when revolutions finally arrive at the imperial core.

One of the most interesting observations that this whole Ukraine war revealed is just how stark the difference in position is between leftists in the imperial core versus leftists in the Global South. The vast majority of the latter immediately recognized why Russia is on the correct side of the history, while the former spent months arguing and failing to understand how imperialism works.

It’s almost like victims of abusers can immediately recognize abusive behavior in others, while abusers themselves keep failing to understand, “how is this an abuse? she hit me first!”. That doesn’t mean victims can’t be shitty themselves, but it certainly doesn’t make them less of a victim of abuse.

Even most countries that do not have a left wing government, let alone AES, stood with Russia and refused to participate while the Western imperialists asked them to sanction Russia. It is truly one of those times when the Global South finally stood up against their imperialist oppressors and refused to do their bidding.

OP, you are from the imperial core, I suppose?

Here's why your friend is a.misguided fool and feel free to use this: as a leftist your interest when war between two bourgeois powers go to war is primarily to minimize the amount of working class people being killed because they are the clas you're attempting to uphold. This means that the war and therefore killing ending earlier is better so aside from not having a war in the first place the fastest route to peace is the best route. In this case that is Ukraine's surrender, doesn't need to be unconditional and could probably have been more conditional earlier but at the end of the day every way ends at the negotiation table and Ukraine's power at that table has only lessened.

It's a common baby leftist failing. Think about how many supported the libyan colour revolt uncritically, or the white hats and us aligned militias in Syria. Manufactured consent is powerful.

Of course in both cases there there were active independent socialist militias, and it's hard not to have had an idealist desire to see the DCNS win. But we should have had better material analysis.

In Ukraine it's chuds vs open fascists with an increasingly strained liberal comedian facade and the poor bastards of the Donbass republics in the middle.

I sympathise with your friend, I dearly want to see Putin get the wall but this is clearly a US destabilisation and more critically the concept of a Banderan Fascist state on the border of the EU should terrify Liberals as well far more than any Russian hegemony over its historic sphere.

All of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I have a moral obligation to make

Gotta love leftists measuring importance of a movement based on electoral success. Fucking social fascists dude

Where do they fall on this chart?

Same. My friend keeps dropping takes like "did you know that Russian soldiers are all drugged beyond belief to get them fighting" or "Russians torture the people just like Israel does". For me they are just these lines here and there that make me think he is following some very propagandy channels somewhere, but I refuse to engage with him and instead just sort of brush over these takes.

But I have wondered where they are coming from. I am not saying bad things aren't done during war, but these seem sus.

Your moral obligation is to ask him if he's pissing and shidding and crying, and if he thinks that Putler will be defeated if he pisses and shidds and cries enough.

Unhinge your jaw and consume them. Later, as they fall into the toilet, they will be born anew as a hexbearian poster

Ask him what it feels like to worship Khorne, the God of Blood and War

Also while apparently it can't be denied that the far right has grown somewhat stronger in Ukraine, the Ukrainian military had to rely on militias such as Azov so they wouldn't lose, we should not worry because they haven't seen that much electoral success

You can push back against this strongly if you want, the neo nazi issue isn't just relying on them now because of the war began in 2022 nonsense, as if this was a recent change, on the contrary.

If you haven't already you can reinforce your position by using the well known western media reporting from the period.

These are some of the first page google results for me, perhaps it would be effective to do this in person with your friend, have them google something like this search term(remove the quotes) "Ukraine neo nazi before:2018-01-01" maybe mess around with the date filter in front of him, experiment with after:2022-01-01 for example and see the narrative change.

But here

2014 Guardian Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat

But there is an increasing worry that while the Azov and other volunteer battalions might be Ukraine's most potent and reliable force on the battlefield against the separatists, they also pose the most serious threat to the Ukrainian government, and perhaps even the state, when the conflict in the east is over. The Azov causes particular concern due to the far right, even neo-Nazi, leanings of many of its members.

Dmitry claimed not to be a Nazi, but waxed lyrical about Adolf Hitler as a military leader, and believes the Holocaust never happened. Not everyone in the Azov battalion thinks like Dmitry, but after speaking with dozens of its fighters and embedding on several missions during the past week in and around the strategic port city of Mariupol, the Guardian found many of them to have disturbing political views, and almost all to be intent on "bringing the fight to Kiev" when the war in the east is over.

The battalion's symbol is reminiscent of the Nazi Wolfsangel, though the battalion claims it is in fact meant to be the letters N and I crossed over each other, standing for "national idea". Many of its members have links with neo-Nazi groups, and even those who laughed off the idea that they are neo-Nazis did not give the most convincing denials.

"Of course not, it's all made up, there are just a lot of people who are interested in Nordic mythology," said one fighter when asked if there were neo-Nazis in the battalion. When asked what his own political views were, however, he said "national socialist". As for the swastika tattoos on at least one man seen at the Azov base, "the swastika has nothing to do with the Nazis, it was an ancient sun symbol," he claimed.

The battalion has drawn far-right volunteers from abroad, such as Mikael Skillt, a 37-year-old Swede, trained as a sniper in the Swedish army, who described himself as an "ethnic nationalist" and fights on the front line with the battalion.

The holocaust never happened and Hitler is a genious, but also the swastica? Don't worry its just an ancient sun symbol lol.

But notice how they try to spin the presence of Russian far right nazis fighting for Ukrainian nazis

Despite the presence of these elements, Russian propaganda that claims Kiev's "fascist junta" wants to cleanse east Ukraine of Russian speakers is overblown. The Azov are a minority among the Ukrainian forces, and even they, however unpleasant their views may be, are not anti-Russian; in fact the lingua franca of the battalion is Russian, and most have Russian as their first language.

Indeed, much of what Azov members say about race and nationalism is strikingly similar to the views of the more radical Russian nationalists fighting with the separatist side. The battalion even has a Russian volunteer, a 30-year-old from St Petersburg who refused to give his name. He said he views many of the Russian rebel commanders positively, especially Igor Strelkov, a former FSB officer who has a passion for military re-enactments and appears to see himself as a tsarist officer. He "wants to resurrect a great Russia, said the volunteer; but Strelkov is "only a pawn in Putin's game," he said, and he hoped that Russia would some time have a "nationalist, violent Maidan" of its own.

Reading comperehension people, its not hard, saying that the Russian "propaganda" is false because the Ukrainian nazis are hand in hand with Russian nazis is not a point in your favor lol.

Many in the Azov battalion with whom the Guardian spoke shared this view, which is a long way from the drive for European ideals and democracy that drove the protests in Kiev at the beginning. The Russian volunteer fighting with the Azov said he believes Ukraine needs "a junta that will restrict civil rights for a while but help bring order and unite the country". This disciplinarian streak was visible in the battalion. Drinking is strictly forbidden. "One time there was a guy who got drunk, but the commander beat him in his face and legs until he could not move; then he was kicked out," recalled one fighter proudly.

Other volunteer battalions have also come under the spotlight. This week, Amnesty International called on the Ukrainian government to investigate rights abuses and possible executions by the Aidar, another battalion.

"The failure to stop abuses and possible war crimes by volunteer battalions risks significantly aggravating tensions in the east of the country and undermining the proclaimed intentions of the new Ukrainian authorities to strengthen and uphold the rule of law more broadly," said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International secretary general, in Kiev.

Human rights abuses in the east(Donbas) region? There is more too about how Azov were already acting as an special police force as well.

There are more articles too here is another one BBC 2014 Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict

But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.

As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.

But this blanket denial also has its dangers, since it allows the ultra-nationalists to fly under the radar. Many Ukrainians are unaware that they exist, or even what a neo-Nazi or fascist actually is, or what they stand for.

As Mr Korotkykh's case demonstrates, the ultra-nationalists have proven to be effective and dedicated fighters in the brutal war in the east against Russian-backed separatists and Russian forces, whose numbers also include a large contingent from Russia's far right.

Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia: a modified Wolf's Hook, a black sun (or "Hakensonne") and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.

Even the BBC wasn't bothering with BS narrative about "ancient black sun". The fucking BBC mind you.

And although Ukraine is emphatically not run by fascists, far-right extremists seem to be making inroads by other means, as in the country's police department.

Both articles mention how Azov was already taking control of Ukrainian law enforcement too. This is not just about the army, but a systematic takeover of the entire government.

But wait there is more

I wont quote these others but you can read with if you haven't already and maybe show it to your friend in person.

Politico 2015 Ukraine’s far-right menace

WSP 2017 Ukraine turns a blind eye to ultrarightist militia

prolong the war as long as possible

Really saying " You absolutely have to die" to UA citizens...

I mean, tbh, I'm a little more sympathetic on this than most Hexbears. Like, no, I don't think Putin is Satan incarnate, and yes, this whole mess is America's fault for trying to pull them into NATO. But broadly speaking all the stuff about Ukraine being Nazi-riddled as a casus beli falls flat when Putin has been happy to use far-right-wing groups like Russki Orbaz for his own benefit, and I don't think Russia is really a credible threat to western hegemony like China is, so I don't see how supporting Russia would be meaningfully revolutionarily defeatist. Sure, people like your friend are psychos who soaked up too much propaganda.

But the war is here now, and I think the only thing keeping your average Ukrainian from living in a war zone is western arms shipments, and tbh that's the only argument that I find really resonates with me.

EDIT: Lot of people big mad about this one lmao

electoral success being historically very important to fascist military cliques

Don't forget how Zelensky entirely 180'd from the peace platform he was elected on. And was in the Panama papers. Or how any leftist opposition parties (or any parties that seek to give eastern Ukraine representation) in Ukraine are banned and officially repressed. Or the many other political reforms to concentrate political power. Or how they signed both Minsk agreements and openly ignored them.

The governments of Ukraine and Russia are both bad, but strengthening NATO (even if just in reputation) will have serious repercussions, and the aim of "prolonging the war" will result in nothing but needless civilian deaths and the further strengthening of the extreme-right in Ukraine.

They're backing fascists. Fascists we helped harbor and make. They were bombing anti fascists for a decade. Now we are in a new Red Scare and Lavender Scare. Asov and C19 doesn't need to win elections they just intimidate and directly threaten politicians. Zelensky removed opposition parties (very democratic). So what's left to counter the fascists?

2018 America’s Collusion With Neo-Nazis

2016 Lindsay Graham commits US military aid directly to Ukraine 2014 Nationalism and fascism in Ukraine: A historical overview

CIA INTERVENTION IN UKRAINE HAS BEEN TAKING PLACE FOR DECADES

CIA PROJECT AREODYNAMIC QRPLUMB / QRDYNAMIC

I find it helpful to distinguish between the ukrainian state under the zelensky regime, other state-like forces in ukraine like their fascist militia, the ukrainian citizenry broadly, and the people of eastern ukraine/donbass/Crimea. If you just lump all of those groups together as "ukraine" it is harder to have a coherent analysis of the situation because each of those groups have distinct interests and incentives. I've gotten libs to engage with those distinctions before by talking about different levels of government/regions of my own country, highlighting places where the federal government does things that don't align with my interests.

The concept of indivisible security is useful to discuss in the context of nato/US v Russian relations as well. Again, this relates to incentives of the different parties.

All this to say, I have a lot of sympathy for the ukrainian populace at large, especially those in the east most directly affected by the war. I have less sympathy for the formal ukrainian state and their roll of the dice/being led down the garden path by the US, and I have no sympathy for fascists.