this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023

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ULTRARAM will allow you to close your laptop, come back a thousand years later and pick up where you left off (www.techradar.com)

submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 59 points 1 year ago

We already had this, it's called Intel Optane Persistent Memory and Intel killed it off last year: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/memory-storage/optane-persistent-memory/overview.html

The memory speed was slightly slower than DDR4 but the benefits didn't seem to outweigh the downsides. I think it probably kicked a lot of ass for specific use cases (eg. in-memory database that needs persistence), but the market was too small. Plus, SSDs are getting so ridiculously fast that it would put pressure on a product like this too.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Can’t wait for my ram to last 1000 years just for the hinge on my laptop screen to last 2 (guess what just broke on my laptop after 2 years)

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

guess what just broke on my laptop after 2 years

I'm guessing it was the floppy drive?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The whole thing is floppy now.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

That's what she said

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

no, it was the power LED

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Perfect for when civilization collapses and we have to do some wasteland 2 shenannigans to get the lost knowledge of the past back by hoarding laptops.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And then you find out they were mainly working from the cloud.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If everything stored solely in the cloud was suddenly lost forever, that would probably be a net boon for humanity.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

lost ~~knowledge~~ memes

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Of course, this is still a new and emerging technology and it’s too early to say when we might see it in our devices, or how much it will cost.

Looks really cool, buy yeah my guess is i will cost to much to be viable for most things.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Maybe it could be good for moving and storing servers?

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago

Now... Let's see what 1000 years of cosmic radiation does to the data.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This sounds neat, but it also seems like it does not have much practical advantage over hibernation except faster wake.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The power draw and nonvolatility could mean it can replace SSDs and hard drives entirely. Just store everything in RAM.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Shout out to whoever picked that thumbnail image.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sounds like a niche use-case for pizza delivery drivers stumbling into cryo chambers

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

But only if I get to look into the beautiful eye of my favorite purple haired friend

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I love the security implications of this. /s

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So you know those encrypted files you might have? You know how your computer is able to display them? Yeah, you enter the passcode and then it and any information derived from it is (probably, barring special hardware) stored in RAM to in order do that. This isn't usually an issue because turning your computer off will quickly erase the RAM and it can no longer be used to open that file.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I mean... this already happens now if you leave the PC open or in sleep, for example with bitlocker.

And I guess in this case it could allow when shutdown if the memory has not been cleared.... But most of the time that is not a problem, most people aren't attacked by pulling the info directly from the hardware.

And in case that is a possible attack, I expect a mechanism of the app(s) to clear that region on shutdown or whatever is done or even better maybe the OS would do it as part of the existing memory protection mechanisms. I mean most apps already clear the memory as soon as possible if it is not needed to avoid having secrets or unencrypted information on memory.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I didn't actually look more closely at how this works, but some kinds of memory are hard to safely erase. If I had to use this, I'd make sure there was a secure wipe of the whole thing minus whatever the system itself is using at shutdown.

It wouldn't completely break security, if that even makes sense as a concept, but it wouldn't help. Hardware security is the strongest kind.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So does it allow this by granting immortality or by necromancy?

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

By uploading your consciousness to the cloud. Basic plans start at $4.99/mo

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So basically just a quicker SSD for systemctl hibernate?

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This sounds like a giant security risk?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sounds more like a very small security risk, to me. For most people if someone steals their laptop it doesn't really matter what kind of RAM is in it.

If you're in some kind of high-security role then use a laptop with volatile RAM instead. Non-volatile will probably be more expensive than the old stuff for quite a while so it's not going anywhere.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Maybe, it depends how it works.

Memory is often unencrypted and/or contains encryption keys. Many programs rely on the assumption that it's cleared on powerdown for security.

Depending on how this memory enters the long term state it seems that a lot of legacy software might become vulnerable to a really simple attack.

Pulling the plug might no longer be something that forces someone to engage in rubber hose analysis.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Many programs rely on the assumption that it’s cleared on powerdown for security.

In a world with ULTRARAM those programs will need to be rewritten to operate under new assumptions.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Sure of course of course but umm have you seen software?

There are still windows xp computers on the internet.

It's not insurmountable, and of course I have no idea if/how this will roll out.

Just it seems to mess with a rather deep assumption we have about how computers operate when we develop software and threat models.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

The better example is that there are still programs compiled in Win 95 running here and there if I'm correct.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Depends if the RAM is encrypted, and how secure the TPM is.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I admit to being out of the game for a while but how common is RAM encryption?

wouldn't the overhead violate half the point of RAM?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There's always a tradeoff in computing between security v/s performance/overhead, so the value of it depends on your threat model, and the attack vectors you're expecting.

Anyways, RAM encryption is generally "available" in various forms, depending on the mobo, CPU, software used etc, but it's not commonly enabled/used. Most AMD boards (at least, mid-range and above should) have an option in the BIOS to enable Secure Memory Encryption (SME). This allows the OS to selectively encrypt memory pages, making use of a hardware AES engine that sits outside of the CPU.

There's also Transparent SME (TSME), which encrypts the entire memory and works completely independent of the OS and software. Usually only high-end/workstation boards have this, and it also requires a Ryzen PRO CPU. TSME also has a much lower overhead, I recall reading somewhere it's something like only 5%.

I believe Intel also has something similar, but I never looked into it.

AMD have a whitepaper available with an overview on how this stuff works, if you're interested: https://www.amd.com/system/files/TechDocs/memory-encryption-white-paper.pdf

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

"Right. Now... what was I working on, again?"

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

I don't think a battery, soldering joints or displays would last that long...

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I have to regretfully say I would have had an apocalypse bingo but I didn't have "Laptop of Dorian Gray" on my scorecard

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

But how do I download more?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I don't understand the point of this. That's what the hard drive I for. The RAM is meant to be wiped.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

RAM is not meant to be wiped. It's just we haven't found a way to make it constant, but still as quick as it is now.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Yeah. I mean, sometimes RAM getting “wiped” is a “feature”, e.g., you don’t want somebody to be able to pull information from RAM after you shut off your computer… but that’s not really what it’s designed for (and you can recover data from powered off RAM in some lucky cases). It’d be sweet if we could have fast non-volatile memory. Having a computer use 0 power when suspended and not having to worry about hibernating to disk would be sweet! I do kind of wonder about the security RAMifications of that, but I guess it’s not much worse than having a laptop suspended currently.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wouldn't it kill your hard drive quickly if every bit in memory was constantly written there - if it was all virtual memory? I think of it like "stuff in my desk" vs "stuff on top of my desk", and now nobody mixes up the papers on my desk when I walk away.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's what RAM is. Following your analogy, you'll put stuff occasionally inside the desk when you're done with it, and keep working what's on your desk. I see persistent ram as like working inside the desk, which is a bit weird to me. Or a desk that just never gets cleaned up.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Have you tried turning it off and on again?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Our Families Windows XP Laptop had a RAM to storage feature that essentially did the same. I think Windows killed it off but if I had to guess it's just not a good idea to avoid rebooting properly so I really can't see the use for this.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You mean hibernate?

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I keep my encryption keys in ram. No thank you.

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