this post was submitted on 14 Feb 2024
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Fediverse Developer Discussion
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This is a Friendica group for discussing development on the #fediverse.
Joining and contributing to a Friendica group is easy. To share your posts to the group, follow these steps:
- Follow this group.
- To post to the group, post on Mastodon as normal and @mention this group.
- The group will then boost your post.
You don't need to be a Friendica user to join this group. Because Friendica is part of the fediverse, this group is available to everyone -- including people who use Mastodon.
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@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] a boost in this case will operate the same as with normal ActivityPub, in which case the block should remain honored. It'll be the exact same as someone boosting your post and whether someone you blocked on AP can see that post.
I'll note however that the bridge should not be a concern if you're worried about that, instead you should be concerned of the thousands of instances like mine (Friendica and Hubzilla) that will natively support Bluesky. If we boost your post, then it'll be copied over to Bluesky with no actual connection to you in the network, so your blocks will not apply and you will have no control over the post afterwards.
@[email protected]
"...Friendica and Hubzilla) that will natively support Bluesky. If we boost your post, then it'll be copied over to Bluesky with no actual connection to you in the network,..."
Besser another question, as so far, I had been in favor of #Friendica;
Does this mean if I were 2 use these 2 platforms, I could never prevent my posts / content from being seen on #Elmo's PayPal platform?!?
Or is there really no difference?
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] The gist is that if you want to prevent your posts from being shared outside of screenshots and quote-posts (where the contents of the post are just copied) the only option is to join a whitelist-only server.
These are servers that federate only with explicitly approved servers, ie. if someone tries to connect from any instance not on that list they're blocked by default.
That's kinda the root of the argument here where a great many people have a false assumption that the fediverse is about control of your data when it is quite the opposite. It's like trying to protect your art from being used by others... by marking it Creative Commons.
The entire design of all federated systems is around open sharing, you can only get control over how your posts spread in a closed system with little or no federation.
As far as whether or not you use those platforms, my example was regardless of whether you're a user.
My server federates across multiple different protocols, if I boost your post then your post is probably being made available to multiple different networks automatically.
The protections and control involved in federated networks is not in how your data is shared, but in how your access is controlled.
In the fediverse you don't have to worry about a bad admin blocking your access to everyone you know, you can freely move accounts between instances. If you piss of Elon for instance, you're cut off from Twitter and everyone on it... full stop... but if you piss off your instance admin, you just move instances and can still connect with everyone.
It's also control over your experience in that you're not relying purely on what their algorithms think you should see. If the instance your on has an algorithm set up that you don't like, then you can move instances to one that has the algorithm you like.
You also have protections against enshittification (the process by which those other networks will draw you in with great features, and then once you're locked in slowly shut down or degrade those features). If features that are important to you start getting shut down on your server... you can move to one that keeps them. If a platform developer does it, another developer can fork the project to keep those features alive.
You also have choice in terms of clients and experiences. You're using Mastodon and I'm on Friendica (I know your instance type because Friendica shows me a little icon beside posts). I vastly prefer the Friendica experience, and I have the choice to use that. And I can use that without forcing you to use the same interface.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
(1/n)
I think I owe you a quick #INTRO, as I have not been in contact with you before, so you might better understand my concerns.
I am a political commentator, as well as an activist. This is why I cannot remain silent:
This is a global super-election year. #Democracy is up for grabs in about 50 countries.1)--This is how the billionaires and the #autocrats like #Putin and #Xi see it, or how #YoelRoth...
@[email protected]
AP-AT-BridgeGroup
Very interesting, how is it possible that you boosted my #Intro thread, even though I have #NoBridge in my bio and am not even a member of your group?!?
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
It's because that's not the bridge, that's a Friendica group about working on such bridges. Friendica supports group accounts that you post to by tagging the group.
Group accounts work by boosting every post that tags them.
The initial post was made to the Fediverse News, Fediverse Developer Discussion, and AP-AT-Bridge Group groups, which is why you'll see them boosting almost every comment throughout this entire thread. Anyone who didn't explicitly removed them from the references is posting to that group as well.
The bridge will not appear as a single account. The bridge will translate accounts through it, so if I made an account named Shiri on the official bluesky server, then followed you through the bridge you would see a follow request from shiri:[email protected] (name formatting probably will differ slightly), likewise that would be the name that would appear for everything I do through the bridge with your account.
If you wanted to block my specific bluesky account from accessing your account, you could block it as normal and it'll work just the same as it always has.
With # NoBridge in your bio, when I go to look up your account through the bridge I either won't get anything at all as if you don't exist or it'll tell me that you've opted out of the bridge.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@shiri
Thanks for the explanation, Shiri.
I pay attention to such thinks, but even with hindsight, I do not see such a group reference.
On #Mastodon, groups are also possible, but I forgot how to use them, as I used them so little.
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
Unless it was recently added, groups are not a thing on Mastodon itself. I do know in the Mastodon side of things a lot of people use Guppe: a.gup.pe/ for groups, which work in the same fashion as Friendica groups, just with no moderator/admin.
In the case of the groups, all 3 have it in their description that they're groups.
Because Mastodon has no support for groups there's no indicator anywhere other than the description that an account is a group account.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@HistoPol
That's because Mastodon doesn't tell you that
Not yet. They're working on it. And everything else that has working groups/forums now is afraid that Mastodon will re-invent the wheel in a way that's the most incompatible possible to what already exists on more than half a dozen Fediverse projects.
What you mean is probably Guppe, but that isn't built into Mastodon and a far cry from what's possible on Friendica.
CC: @Jamie Booth @Oli @Ryan Barrett @Luca Sironi @Andre @chronohart
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Friendica #Groups
@HistoPol
For someone like you, you would probably want to post publicly, to as many platforms and protocols as you can, so you reach a wider audience. But you would need to choose a platform with better permissions and moderation tools.
For example, you would want to control who can comment on your posts and be able to delete comments that are toxic. Mastodon does not have this capability, but most platforms that have threaded conversations give you that ability.
@[email protected]
" But you would need to choose a platform with better permissions and moderation tools.
For example, you would want to control who can comment on your posts and be able to delete comments that are toxic. "
Very true.
However, I have a very strick block policy and in 98% of cases, the threat of using it, helps.
I always wonder a little bit what happens, after I block s.o.
My understanding is, that his/her posts remain, but we cannot see each others posts anymore (counter-block, mostly)
@HistoPol On platforms like Hubzilla and Streams (and most other platforms that support threaded conversations), you have more control.
Basically, a threaded conversation is a container, and the person who started the conversation controls what goes into that container. If you, as the person who started the conversation, don't like what someone said, you can delete their post. Since it is part of your container, a delete notification goes out to everyone participating on your thread and the post gets deleted for them too. The person who originally posted it would still have their copy, and their followers might still see it, but it would no longer be distributed via your thread to people following the thread. You can also prevent someone from commenting on your post at all, which in that case, their comment gets rejected and is not distributed to anyone.
It works similar with forum topics, except the forum owns the initial conversation. The administrator or moderator can delete posts and restrict commenting.
The threaded conversation model gives you more control over the conversation than non-threaded platforms based on pre-X Twitter.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
(2/n)
...former head of #Twitter's Trust and Security department, might have phrased it. 2)
We have all seen what has happened to #Twitter. What many still don't know, is why he is supposedly burning a lot of money with the purchase: 3).
#Musk and his #TESCREAL 4) adherents from Silicon Valley are vying for world domination. #Elmo already is the world's most...
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
(3/n)
...influential fascist, just considering his market power regarding #SpaceX 5) and the "voice" he has as #X owner. By turning off his #StarLink service in #Crimea, he has successfully prevented potentially victorious strikes by #Ukraine against #Russia's invasion force.
But they are not the only #billionaire group vying for even more power. The most...
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
(4/n)
... successful has so far been the #FederalistSociety in conjunction with the #CenterForNationalPolicy (#CNP), among whose major feats are putting #Trump in the #WhiteHouse and hijacking the #US #SupremeCourt. 6)
#Autocrats like #Putin and #Xi trying to gain influence through military and economic means are the other group of people trying to destroy #Western #democracies by disseminating...
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
(5/n)
... #disinformation and carrying out #CyberWarfare.
And, last but not least, another, even more dangerous #PayPal of #Elmo, #PeterThiel, is enabling governments around the globe to get rid of opponents. The dangerous spyware he owns, #Palantir, is being used e.g. to hunt down investigative journalists in #SouthAmerica 8) and elsewhere 7) and for #discriminatory...
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
(6/n)
...#PredictivePolicing. 8)
2024 certainly isn't the year to remain silent:
#Poland lost and regained its democracy twice already.
The US might lose it to a ruthless autocrat in 2025.
And #Ukraine is fighting tooth and nail for its #democracy.
//
FOOTNOTES:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/12/2024-elections-around-world/
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/111086529042597457
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110079043525873237
https://mastodon.social/@HistoPol/110565890923413442
...
For journalists the value of the fediverse is in not getting silenced. It's here to amplify voices in that fashion so that nobody can be silenced, for good or ill (ie. you can block Nazi instances so you don't see them, but you can't stop a Nazi instance from existing or sharing content).
If you operate in a "I control where my message goes" manner, then you're operating in a manner that can be very easily silenced. It drastically limits your reach.
It's one of those fundamental things where you can't have it both ways, control over your reach is inherently limiting to your reach.
And when talking about the fight against fascism, uncontrolled spread is very much preferable as they can't silence you. If you are careful in your security you can post from an account until the fascists shut down your server... but the post will still be out there floating around. And you can just as easily stay on the network by starting a new account every time they shut down a server... they'd have to shut down the whole network to stop you.
Bridges make it even harder for them because then you can also jump between platforms and if they can't shut down your server they'd have to shut down every single bridge... which new ones can be started with trivial ease (a lot less work and resources than starting up normal instances).
There's nothing they can do to you over a bridge that they can't already do without a bridge, in fact they have less control through a bridge. But you on the other hand have your voice amplified even further.
Additionally the whole fediverse gets stronger as it encourages development on both sides, if one starts lagging behind in features/quality it permits users to move without "leaving" the fediverse.
If Bluesky starts pumping hardcore propaganda and silencing leftist voices... then the bridge offers a light, showing the abuse and giving them a way out that doesn't involve starting over from scratch.
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@[email protected]
(1/2)
"If Bluesky starts pumping hardcore propaganda and silencing leftist voices... then the bridge offers a light, showing the abuse and giving them a way out that doesn't involve starting over from scratch."
How so? I have not read that you can migrate you #BlueSky account to another #Fediverse platform, say, #friendica
However, for me the single biggest #exit barrier is, that I...
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
(2/2)
...would lose my over 40k posts again, and a lot of them are important to me, as I regularly reference back to older posts. Furthermore, convos/discussions, such as these, are of value and are also worth keeping for future reference. They'd be lost, too, by moving. AFAIC, there is only one #Fediverse platform that permits migrating posts, but only internally, too.
//
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] missed this earlier, but the way out isn't usually account migration, that's a very specific and non-standard function that Mastodon implemented (Mastodon has a bad habit of only half-implementing ActivityPub and then rolling out it's own features and forcing everyone else to comply with their non-standard nonsense... they're kinda the internet explorer of the fediverse)
The way out is because you can leave without severing connections. I'm not saying you won't have to re-add people... but that you still have the option to re-add people. If someone deletes their Twitter account... they lose access to everyone that's only on Twitter. If Bluesky is bridged (and no ifs ands or buts, open bridges will exist despite people's complaints) and they delete their Bluesky account... they'd still have access to those same people.
The whole reason Facebook sticks around and maintains enormous power is because so many people don't have the option to leave without making themselves second class citizens in their communities. (Literally the only reason I have a facebook account... if I could access them over fedi, I'd delete my account in a heartbeat)
@[email protected]
Highly interesting.
I think this sentence is missing the alternative method to #AccountMigration:
"The way out is because you can leave without severing connections."
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] The alternative is making a new account and re-adding the same people.
I had to do that when I moved from Mastodon to Friendica.
I didn't knew this thing that you can't migrate your follower from mastodon to friendica 😐
From mastodon to pleroma (and i think also misskey) it works.
cc @[email protected]
@[email protected] I understand your difficulties, but always remember that Friendica is compatible with ActivityPub BUT it works with a different protocol and its profiles are particular objects that contain a kind of unique key
@[email protected]
@[email protected] @[email protected] it used to work with a different protocol, Friendica has been ActivityPub based longer than Mastodon has been alive.
Always remember that Mastodon is well established to be a poor neighbor in the AP community, not supporting the full spec and often implementing their own non-standard solutions.
@[email protected] I'm actually pretty sure Friendica put up Activitypub a few months later than mastodon, but otherwise I agree with what you say.
@[email protected]
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
Well, migrating followers (just followers) should really be a standard feature of ActivityPub then.
One that must be implemented by all the supposed AP compatible projects
Nobody is gonna buy the theoretical reach of all the same people, like real freedom to change fediverse provider.
cc @[email protected]
@[email protected] In reality, when it comes to migrations, Friendica does much more than any other ActivityPub-compatible platform, such as importing all the messages and contents of the old profile...
Friendica cannot be responsible for Mastodon's flaws 🤷🏽♂️
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@[email protected] @[email protected] Some platforms have specifically gone out of their way to support Mastodon's non-standard functions... that doesn't make them standard or a platform as deficient for not supporting them.
A lot of that has to do with the relationship between them, where many of those are newer platforms inspired by and emulating Mastodon. Friendica on the other hand is one of the old school platforms that looooong predates Mastodon, so supporting any of their non-standard stuff is a monumental task (it's easy to support something when you're starting from scratch)
@shiri
I did this using a Tool migrating from the (now) #DeadBirdSite.
Still, not being able to migrate the convos is NOT an "alternative", but an *escape hatch*."
One example, that many will know:
Imagine, that you invented 1000's of hours uploading and curating pics and shorts on your #Instagram account.
For whatever reason, you cannot maintain your account. Starting a new one, you lose all your work (it's not just...
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
(2/2)
...just the pics, but the interaction with contacts.)
PS:
I know:
...there are tools for exporting (beside the point)
...many people here even autodelete there posts (utterly different use-case)
...it's better than on most corporate sites (yes, but still just "rudimentary" flexibility, at least on #Mastodon.)
...that #Firefish(?) (still?) supports own-post migration (but that was no choice when I joined)
//
Like I said before, all of that is non-standard functions that the vast majority of the fediverse doesn't even support.
I think you might be confusing ease and possibility. Few people even when moving instances within the fediverse are going to have that option (save for those moving between two instances of the same platform).
It's not whether there's some convenient tool to move your posts or other data.
It's about whether after the move you can still get the same updates and talk to the same people.
Think of it in terms of the oldest surviving federated network: changing email accounts.
Before SMTP (the federated email protocol), you had to have accounts on every server with people you wanted to talk to. After you only had to have one account, but could readily move about the network to other servers if you got fed up with your server's bullshit or another offered better services.
(And for the record, public bridges with no opt-out methods exist for email as well)
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@[email protected]
(1/2)
"If you operate in a "I control where my message goes" manner, then you're operating in a manner that can be very easily silenced. It drastically limits your reach.
It's one of those fundamental things where you can't have it both ways, control over your reach is inherently limiting to your reach."
Excellent point, Shiri. Taken.
However, please...
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
@shiri
"...have to shut down the whole network to stop you.
Bridges make it even harder for them because then you can also jump between platforms and if they can't shut down your server they'd have to shut down every single bridge..."
I begin to like #bridges. #FascismProof and #AutocracyProof, so-to-speak :)
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
@HistoPol
That is one of the main reasons the fediverse exists and and is structured the way it is.
There still are some concerns about trolls commenting on your posts, but that can be dealt with using the proper tools.
This applies to the fediverse as well.
@[email protected]
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
From reading some of the other posts and his answer to my earlier post, it seems he is accepting AP blocks in the software. So, both the tag and a block (domain or user) should work the same way.
@shiri
#Bluesky #Block
Very concerning, indeed.
How would I go about this?
Would I need to block any and all friendica and hubzillla instances?
"you should be concerned of the thousands of instances like mine (Friendica and Hubzilla) ...boost your post, then it'll be copied over to Bluesky with no actual connection to you in the network, so your blocks will not apply and you will have no control over the post afterwards."
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
@[email protected] @[email protected] Very concerning indeed. I would suggest logging off and going outside if this is a concern for you.
@HistoPol It is my understanding that boosts won't be passed on if you block the bridge or add
#nobridgeto your profile because the boost still has you as the original author. This would be true no matter which software a person is using.But if someone quotes you (on any platform, not just the ones mentioned) or takes a screenshot of your post, that would not be blocked. And people can do that now without the bridge. Windows comes with software that allows people to take screenshots. So do phones. And most other fediverse platforms other than Mastodon allow quoting.
The fediverse has over 100 different projects and multiple protocols already connected to it. If you are concerned that people will quote you or boost you on other networks, you might want to consider a whitelist servers where you only allow approved Mastodon instances.
With or without the Bluesky bridge, you are about to be outnumbered by Threads, WordPress, and other projects coming online. ActivityPub is an open network, after all. Always has been.
But the nice thing is that you can control who you connect with by blocking or whitelisting. In your case, being on a whitelist server would probably address your concerns.
@[email protected]
Thanks a lot, Scott.
I am aware of several of these things. A friend of mine, https://stefanbohacek.online/@stefan, created https://jointhefediverse.net to remedy this lack of undesirable for newbies and no-nerds.
I know what #whitelisting is general, but how would I go about this on #Mastodon?
The whitelist, if I don't want to do everything manually (no-go,) would need to be "intelligent" and able to discern the platform s.o. is using for his handle...
I can live with the screenshot issue.
@HistoPol
I don't use Mastodon, so I don't know for sure. Some people have mentioned that there is a whitelist mode that is called "limited federation mode" or something like that. The admin would have to turn that on since it is for the whole instance.
If you don't want to use whitelist mode, people have been talking about blocklists that can be imported into Mastodon. I am not familiar with how they work. Maybe someone who uses Mastodon could answer this one?
@[email protected] In short, it's just like blocking one-by-one but as batch-action. Admins can also block domains using wildcards, I think.
However, either would not work to block specific software. You would indeed have to use an instance in limited federation mode, where each connection is checked one-by-one, to avoid federating with Friendica and Hubzilla instances that could copy your posts over.
@Qazm There are other options, like using a platform that has privacy, access lists, permissions, and better moderation tools. Mastodon only has block lists, which limits user's control over their own posts.
For example, on Mastodon you can block someone so you can't see their posts, but you can't stop them from replying to posts they have already seen. On Hubzilla, you can actually turn off commenting on your posts so no one can reply or so that specific people can't reply, and can even delete other people's replies to your thread. You control the conversation in your thread. You can't do that on platforms like Mastodon.
Also, on Hubzilla, it is all about user choice. So if Hubzilla implements the Bluesky protocol, both the admin AND the user would have to opt-in. Users would have to actively turn on the Bluesky addon to federate with Bluesky. Otherwise none of their posts will ever be sent to Bluesky. I am pretty sure Friendica will work the same way.
So Hubzilla and Friendica would actually do a better job at blocking Bluesky than the bridge does. And the bridge actually has a lot of options for blocking Bluesky.
So instead of blocking Hubzilla and Friendica, you probably want to start using it instead, since it gives you better protection against Threads and Bluesky than Mastodon does.
@scott I don't think so. Other Hubzilla or Friendica instances that receive a Hubzilla post over AP can still boost it over there, right?
The reply control from your instance won't stop Mastodon users from replying either (though it will stop you seeing those replies, and to some extent will reduce the visibility of replies).
I think it all comes down to what's outlined in https://foggyminds.com/display/c6ef095f-1165-ce77-d6de-73f618365846 (saw that post a little after my reply above) and open federated social media in general being built around own-access-choices rather than data control, outside of posting modes with very limited reach which should be implemented with more privacy than they are.
@Qazm That was sort of my point. If you want to have more control over who can see and respond to your posts, you probably should stop using Mastodon and switch to a platform that supports privacy, access control, permissions, and moderation.