this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2023
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[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Libertarianism is not a coherent ideology based in political reality or science. It's an ad-hoc justification for why capitalism is incompatible with liberalism, that is the values of democracy, freedom, liberty, etc. There is no such thing as stateless capitalism. Capital depends on the state and will always increase state power as more capital is accumulated. They like the dictatorships because the state is acting purely in the interest of capital while embracing the ideological misdirection of bigotry. That is the dictatorship is free to grind workers into paste with the use of near unlimited state control and power while the wealthy and petite bourgeois explain it all with racism, sexism, xenophobia, and nationalism. It uses those things to nudge workers away from class consciousness. They're not actually hypocrites because ideological consistency is not the goal nor does it matter in the pursuit of power. They have the material edge and being hypocritical only helps them.

This is why we can't take you seriously. You're stuck on why your fellow libertarians are hypocritical, you don't understand what's actually happening. You're stuck in a world of ideology and abstractions away from the actual bare-bones model of society. Since your ideology has no explanatory power in the real world, your only recourse is clinging to models like the horseshoe theory. You don't have a deep understanding of your own ideology let alone that of tankies, they just exist as points on some graph of extremism in your world.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Libertarianism is not a coherent ideology based in political reality or science. It's an ad-hoc justification for why capitalism is incompatible with liberalism, that is the values of democracy, freedom, liberty, etc.

To further this point, the original libertarian theorists rejected the enlightenment's triplet of "equality, liberty and property" for a couplet of just "liberty and property". The basis of libertarian ideology is a rejection of equality as a fundamental value.

As for why actually existing libertarianism is indistinguishable from fascism/right wing authoritarianism in practice, it is because it is fundamentally not an ideology compatible with any concept of ethics. The core of libertarian thought is an abandonment of social, political , economic, and ultimately societal responsibility for others. However, without responsibility there can be no ethics. And without no ethics in an ultimate "might makes right" world where capital is in control and equality is abandoned as a fundamental value, what prevails? We all know what.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Just like communism may mean ancom, ansyn, trotskyism in various kinds, stalinism in various kinds, libertarianism may mean minarchism, ancap, panarchism, georgeism and so on.

It’s an ad-hoc justification for why capitalism is incompatible with liberalism

It's not. It's just voluntarism put over anything else. Hence age of consent arguments, for example.

It's actually the most coherent ideology, because any compromise for practicality would make it a part of some other existing one.

That's also the reason for very little of it existing in reality.

This is why we can’t take you seriously. You’re stuck

It's ok, I'm not taking your particularly seriously too, one really shouldn't, it's all a mix with pieces of gold very rare.

However, I'm not stuck in general.

You’re stuck in a world of ideology and abstractions away from the actual bare-bones model of society.

There's no "actual" model, a model by definition is a simplification allowing you to analyze a phenomenon spending a fraction of energy needed to recreate it.

And that's the problem ML has - instead of producing one model after another, some for one use case, some for another, some being discarded, some being used further, ML just has one model based on Imperial Germany as a dogma and puts it over reality.

I don't need a deep understanding of something which may or may not fit. I don't even theoretically, potentially have access to source of any "deep understanding".

It's like algebraic solutions vs numeric ones.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

any compromise for practicality would make it a part of some other existing one.

That's also the reason for very little of it existing in reality.

...so why are you a libertarian? In your own words it doesn't exist because it does not actually address the practicalities of the world.

If I knew that my political ideology isn't compatible with the real world, I would find a better one.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

No ideology is compatible with the real world.

And I'm not a libertarian. It's just the closest known point so I called myself that.

A distributist would be closer, just you are likely not aware of such a thing.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago

What do distributists think about age of consent laws

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Stalinism isn't an ideology btw, Stalin was just a Marxist-Leninist.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

That's the Stalinist point of view. Cults of personality, nationalist propaganda, banning abortions and so on are not exactly ML.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Cult of personality

Oh okay, you're operating on a 9 year-old's epistemology peltier-laugh I bet you also believe the clapping story.

Heres the CIA saying you're wrong tho

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago

Actually, I prefer it when my leaders are deeply unpopular.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I'm still stuck on this, this shit has me fucked up. So the people who supposedly are in a cult of personality...steadfastly refuse to give the subject of their adulation credit for being a theorist? This is the first I've ever heard of a personality cult where the orthodox view is "Nah, our guy didn't create anything particularly unique or worthy of deliniation."

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago

It’s an ad-hoc justification for why capitalism is incompatible with liberalism

It's not. It's just voluntarism put over anything else. Hence age of consent arguments, for example.

Voluntarism is capitalist apologia, yes. The very premise is that society is a collection of independent individuals, exactly the premise which is both prerequisite for and produced by capitalism. Voluntarism takes this state ideology and proclaims it as an eternal, natural truth which cannot be escaped; the only problem, claim the libertarians, is that the state is interfering with the free expression of this ideology — which is exactly the reverse causal direction.

“Truly, one must be destitute of all historical knowledge not to know that it is the sovereigns who in all ages have been subject to economic conditions, but they have never dictated laws to them. Legislation, whether political or civil, never does more than proclaim, express in words, the will of economic relations.”

You must rip out the idealism which has rotten your logic if you want it to have any connection to material reality. Start scientifically from the world as it really exists, and from history as it really unfolded, not from your abstract models of independent individual exchanges, which so happens to justify the status quo or an intensification thereof.

You need to investigate how society is in fact a web of interrelations and dependency; ie the very opposite of non-interacting isolated individuals. There is no society without dependency. A theory that starts with an assumption of independence is absolutely useless.