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You know we've gone too far when people feel bad for saying thank you sir/mam...
At one point, people thought we had gone too far because they weren't allowed to say the N word anymore.
Sir and Ma'am are only respectful if the person hears it as such.
Are they wrong about public opinion of the N word though? This entire thread is a collection of words/phrases/actions that people (and often society at large) used to think were completely harmless but gradually realized carried some negative connotation--or were even downright slurs--to certain people, and committed to stop using.
This is not necessarily a dig on you personally, but if you think that people proactively being considerate of fellow humans is a bad thing or "going too far", maybe that's a you problem.
Nah, that sounds like more your thing. I'm going to do what makes those around me happy and comfortable.
That’s fine, but also the vast majority of people are content being called by their assumed pronouns. I’m all for inclusion but I’m not going to erase two perfectly innocuous words from my vocabulary because one person might be sensitive about it.
Use your best judgement, if somebody corrects you then apologize and use their preferred pronoun moving forward. If that’s not good enough, that’s their problem.
Eh, it costs me nothing and actually helps me with a personal goal I have to not make assumptions about someone's identity based on what I perceive. As someone who has been misgendered many times in the past, it truly hurts, and while that may be a personal problem, I don't really love going around potentially causing others to feel hurt in any way.
That’s fair and I appreciate your insight here. I imagine you “know” that those who misgendered you didn’t do so intentionally or intend on being hurtful, but I’m sure it still hurts anyway. I’m sorry for that.
I suppose in the real world, using my best judgement means that if I’m unsure, I skip the gendered pronoun. It still requires an assumption based on perception, admittedly not ideal. But I also view sir and ma’am as a traditional sign of respect and I’ve used them liberally my whole life. I usually give an enthusiastic yes sir or ma’am even at the drive through.
It’s obviously a nuanced discussion that we’re not going to solve here and today, but again I appreciate your non-aggressive take, a perspective I didn’t have before.
Thanks for engaging in productive discussion! And yes, I fully realize that in almost all but very specific and relatively easily identifiable cases, misgendering is something that happens accidentally and is not intended to be injurious. But for anyone who does not identify with their gender assigned at birth, it really does feel super bad.
I love that you also seem to have the same regard for social politness as I do. I feel like as someone who wants to use terms of respect to make others feel confident and comfortable, the possibility that I may accidentally do the very opposite of that is something that makes me want to try and better the way I interact.
Fuck that. NO ONE LEAVES UNTIL WE GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS THING!
Edit: /s just in case
Not all people identify with the two-gender labels. For instance, I'm genderqueer, and I'd feel very dysphoric if someone told me "ma'am."
I'm a cis lady and I don't like being called ma'am. It feels so forced and phony.
I mentioned it to my mom the first time I got "ma'am"ed. I'm a cis woman and I hated it! Mom, who looks much more ma'am-worthy than I, said the same thing. I don't know if anyone wants to be a "ma'am."
I don't care one way or the other as long as it's an attempt at politeness. It's fine.
I agree.
This world is going to hell in a wokebasket if people start thinking about what comes out their fucking mouth.
/s, cos you never fuckin know nowadays.
They don't feel bad for using those terms, they feel bad about using them on someone incorrectly. There's nuance here that is lost on those who struggle to grasp the difference and phrasing things as if we're being forced to stop using them or "delete them from our vocabulary" is counterproductive.
I don't think it is univerally okay to make assumptions about someone's personal identity before you know it. I am happy calling someone sir or ma'am after I know their gender identity. But in a casual interaction between strangers, there is no need for it at all and it is just an ingrained and outdated social convention that I personally am striving to move past.