this post was submitted on 10 Nov 2023
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Work Reform
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A place to discuss positive changes that can make work more equitable, and to vent about current practices. We are NOT against work; we just want the fruits of our labor to be recognized better.
Our Philosophies:
- All workers must be paid a living wage for their labor.
- Income inequality is the main cause of lower living standards.
- Workers must join together and fight back for what is rightfully theirs.
- We must not be divided and conquered. Workers gain the most when they focus on unifying issues.
Our Goals
- Higher wages for underpaid workers.
- Better worker representation, including but not limited to unions.
- Better and fewer working hours.
- Stimulating a massive wave of worker organizing in the United States and beyond.
- Organizing and supporting political causes and campaigns that put workers first.
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I mean what I've said. The more people you have, the more time you consider, the more likely that some outliers in that group will seek to exploit the system and game it in their favour. Given that all societies now are quite large, this probability becomes an inevitable certainty; all societies have this problem, so we can generalise and say "people behave this way".
Peter Thiel has been doing this on private islands. Not that I support that jagoff in any way, but that was the answer that instantly popped into my head.
Any of those. I'm not talking about any specific social structure, just human nature. I'm saying that social structure needs to account for fringe aspects of human behaviour, because once society becomes large enough then these fringe aspects become significantly large also, even if overall they are the minority.
I'm not talking about how societies evolve, or any specific structure, just a specific aspect of human nature.
No. I'm talking more about sociopathy, ie those who manipulate others for their own benefit. However, I would say sociopaths are a minority, but when a group of people is large enough the number of sociopaths and their behaviour becomes a significant problem.
Most of what you've been saying here is focused on the system. The argument I'm making is system agnostic; I'm talking about human behaviour, in particular the fringe behaviour that becomes inevitable in large groups of people, ie in modern societies.
It seems like you're speaking in defense of a specific social structure, but you're reluctant to actually talk about that structure or even name it.
This is kind of a running theme with you. You imply that I'm wrong, but don't offer any counter point in return. This is an incredibly disingenuous way of arguing, you don't really say anything of any substance but expect me to provide your argument for you.
If you want to talk about the merits of communism, or any other system, I'm game, and I'd love to hash out definitions with you so that we're completely on the same page. I think your reluctance stems from the ways in which the terminology is poisoned - much like "retard" was once a technical medical term but since became a slur, "communism" has become something of a dirty word in some circles. That doesn't mean the ideas behind it are wrong, and I'm happy to talk about the ideas using whatever words.
I return to my original observation, that you are viewing human behavior as inflexible and prescribed, rather than being shaped by personal experience and social context.
In your view, every society is a failure in its essence, because humans are in their essence incapable of forming any society that is not a failure.
I encourage you to think about how societies may differ, one from another.
It is the only meaningful path.
Dwelling on the presumed intransigent darkness of humanity leads to nowhere. It is neither constructive nor particularly accurate.
It's not that human behaviour is inflexible - indeed, it's the opposite, humans are so flexible that they do things that are hard to predict. Given a large enough population and enough time certain negative behaviours will inevitably happen. With modern societies, this becomes a near certainty. If you stretch it to the absolute limit, then all things will happen, good and bad.
Still, you're trying to put words in my mouth, twisting what I'm saying into an absolute statement that I have not made, so you can argue against that. I do not appreciate this. You are being offensive.
Ignoring the capacity for people to do bad things is the height of negligent ignorance. That isn't to say that everyone does bad things and has bad intent, just that everyone has the capacity to, and if you have enough people and allow enough time bad actors will surface. Any society of any significant size that purports to last long enough must acknowledge and accommodate this fact. This is the foundation of criminal law, which is present in every society.
That doesn't mean that every society is a failure, just that there is room for improvement. I'm simply saying that the models currently used to form a society aren't accurate enough and don't adequately account for human behaviour. We need to adapt our models and make them better, not rely on philosophy from 100+ years ago.
I feel doubtful that a society being permanently stable is necessarily the most important objective.
Try to understand what people need and seek in their lives, and consider how certain organization may promote or impede their capacity to reach or to achieve such needs and wants.
Try not to worry about the absolute count of negative events or negative actors. Most important is the structural resilience against such stress.
That's exactly what I've said from the beginning. Society needs to be more flexible, and if our current models are to be effecitve they need to be "shaken up" so as to prevent extreme exploitation by those who gather power and influence over society.
Again, that's what I said near the beginning. Society should aim to meet the core needs of the people. After that, society should provide the opportunity for people to meet their desires - but this must be tempered so as not to meet the desires of some at the expense of other peoples' needs.
It's not about any asolute count of negative events or negative actors, rather that such things will inevitably happen. Structural resiliance against such things is exactly what I'm saying is lacking in most societies - all too often sociopaths are allowed to take the helm and steer society towards depravity, for their own personal gain. A perfect societal structure must account for this, and our current implementations across the globe do not.
Exploitation and autocracy are expressly encouraged by particular structure, though, whereas antagonized by other.
I encourage seeking to develop those structures protect the empowerment of everyone.
Again, you're skirting around saying things. If you want to say that capitalism is bad and communism is good that's fine by me.
Personally, I see flaws in both systems. They're different, but both are susceptible to exploitation, albeit in slightly different forms. It's only through constant review and viligilance that the rot can be kept away.
Communism is not complacency or obedience.
It is simply the eradication of the systems of exploitation.
And yet, in many countries that have applied communism people still get exploited.
If worker exploitation has not been overcome, then communism has not been achieved.
As I say, I feel doubtful that you genuinely understand communism.
I'd agree with that. Communism has not really ever been implemented successfully, for a number of reasons. One of those is incumbents from the old system trying to twist the new system into something else, all for their own benefit so they can stay on top. Another is influence from non-Communist nations eg the US.
You keep saying that but offer no actual corrections to say where I'm wrong or what is right.
The reason is because of much of what you have written, for example...
Various examples occur throughout your comments appearing as reactionary or liberal obfuscations of communism, and its differences with capitalism, or that seem unaware of general criticisms of capital.
You may feel my characterizations are inaccurate, and you may be correct, but I feel that they are representative of your argumentation, by its heavy assimilation of various tropes common within bad faith engagement with leftism.
Now who's using terminology they don't really understand. Just because you're a member of a clique/cult with its own specific definitions for terminology does not make that terminology valid. The bad faith engagement is your own, as you assume your definitions are universal, rather than taking a common sense approach, or even establishing definitions before building an argument.