this post was submitted on 03 Sep 2023
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No, the alternative is for the west to stop using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
And what, let the Russians steamroll Ukraine and take everything? Let them destroy a fledgling democracy? Right on the EU's and NATO's doorstep? Come on.
lmao are you fucking kidding
and shit while we're at it, what the fuck do you think NATO has been doing its entire existence? it's been destroying -actual- fledgling democracies, you monstrously hypocritical ass
Sees notably corrupt country the U.S. couped in 2014, where even the anti-corruption president has personal funds stashed in offshore bank accounts
I've noticed that every pro-NATO voice screaming "war good" has to pretend like the binary outcome of this war is a) Ukraine becomes Russia and every living inhabitant is genocided (see above comment from bibibi for case in point), or b) Ukraine heroically drives back Russia with magic in a completely asymmetrical and unwinnable war
And then finishes their comment with something like this
There's no material analysis to support any of this
The only way to get to that viewpoint is to believe Putin is an irrational, genocidal maniac hellbent on killing checks notes neighbors who are ethnically russian, who also desperately wants to push even more of Russia's border right up against a hostile NATO. It's no surprise that the people saying this shit are pro NATO and don't understand the material reality underlying geopolitical conflicts like this one
Not gonna touch the "fledgeling democracy" thing, other comrades can dunk on that
This entire thread is proof that the liberal understanding of geopolitics and foreign policy is entirely vibes based
"ethnical russian" - what is that?
russian imperialism is a thing. People there are brainwashed with russia's greatness ideas and expansion. putin's actions just represent the will of russians.
The fact we were attacked and lost that many people is already a defeat. We lost this war when gave up nukes under the push of the west and russia. this together with naivness of our post-soviet people defined the path of our degradation. But it neither a win for russia, and won't be. Russia was always corrupted just like Ukraine, it just got more resources and nukes, but that's it. without the above fact and support of the west, maybe we would not be able to suppress them
this is your brain on liberalism
but thank you for at least conceding america deserved 9/11
i just can't anymore, the cognitive dissonance is fucking astounding, yall can deal with the libs in this thread
im just gonna let people like this
continue to suck off the western imperialists sending radiated shells to his neighborhood, slava ukrani buddy
Oh man I still remember the post that was leaked from russian government webpage on the 25th, a day after russian invaded. It was an absolute hard on about russian imperialism and how they will restore the good old russian empire or something, which included most slavic countries btw. It was taken down in hours but I checked that the addess was correct and legit. No proof of it since it's been a year already and I saved nothing, so if you don't believe it ignore me and please don't spread this since I have no source anymore, but damn if it doesn't paint a clear picture of russia's intent on all of this since way before.
this damning evidence of Russia's intentions would surely have motivated more countries to send aid to Ukraine. Why didn't you take a screenshot?? you realize that you're directly responsible for the deaths of thousand of Ukrainians, right???
How do you think this is going to end exactly?
Lol
The real alternative is for Russians to go home. Who the fuck cares who's using them? They're being invaded. Russia didn't need to invade them, but they thought they could get away with it (again). This isnt the first invasion of a sovereign country Russia has done. It isn't even the first invasion of Ukraine. The US didn't get involved in the others. Are we just going to excuse those?
Have you ever played 4x games? Do you know what encirclement is? When an opponent is ringing your territory with bases while they keep telling you it's totally cool bro, they're just working on their defenses while making alliances with players adjacent to you, what do you consider is their end game?
Yeah, everyone Russia has invaded has been for defence. Sure buddy. The real world is more complex than a 4X game, but even then you can use that to understand why someone would invade another country. They wanted to steal the resources and population. You may use your statement as a justification, but it is never the actual reason. The excuse of it being defensive is rediculous. Yeah, invading a sovereign country (multiple times) is sure to make the alliance "encircling" you stop. Seriously? Do you believe that rhetoric or are you just saying it because you're supposed to?
I don't know why people keep repeating this. Do you honestly think this is a coherent point? Russia is obviously not going to go home no matter how many times you're going to repeat it. It's a meaningless and useless statement that literally solves nothing. Either NATO can defeat Russia or not, so far it looks like NATO is not able to do so. What NATO is accomplishing is prolonging the conflict without changing the outcome. That means more people dying and having their lives ruined so that US military industry can make a profit and so that US can try and weaken Russia geopolitically. Anybody who thinks the west is in this conflict to help Ukraine is an utter imbecile.
Should the US have sent supplies to the allies in WWI and WWII before joining? It was just prolonging the war and causing people to die, right?
The reason the US is doing it is not morality. Everyone knows that. International politics is never about morality, it's about power. However, that doesn't mean it isn't also the moral option.
Also, NATO and the US are not in the war. We're sending supplies. The US isn't even sending the good stuff. We're sending parts of our stockpile that's old and has just been sitting around waiting for a use. They haven't sent the newer technology so it it isn't studied in case a real enemy requires them to be used.
It takes an incredible amount of historical illiteracy to try and draw parallels between WW2 and the proxy war US is waging against Russia in Ukraine. However, if you weren't historically illiterate, then you'd also know that US companies continued working with the nazis well into the war, and IBM is famously responsible for facilitating the holocaust.
Also, NATO and the US are very obviously in this war, and one has to be utterly intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.
When the US government was providing resources to the allies, was it good or bad? I'm not talking companies or anything else. You're dodging the question. There are enough parallels to draw a comparison. You just know what the answer would be and it conflicts with your beliefs, so you can't admit it, to yourself or others.
When US government provides resources to these people, is it good or bad?
And this is why your comparison is historically illiterate. The actual comparison would be US funding the nazis in WW2. You're either ignorant of whom US is propping up in Ukraine or you're just dishonest. Either way not a good look.
Still didn't answer the question. More What-aboutism. How unexpected! /s
I did answer your question in detail, and it's safe to dismiss anybody who uses whataboutism as a form of argument. That's just a logical fallacy that imbeciles use to try and create a double standard.
You didn't, and I didn't use What-aboutism. I pointed out that you did. You said "what about...." What's wrong with you?
You libs always want to demand every single historical event be perceived and analyzed in a vacuum. This is why you get mocked so often.
I did, and you crying about whataboutism is what I'm referring to. Anybody who calls out whataboutism as a form of argument is engaging in intellectual dishonesty. The question you set up is fundamentally wrong, and you're fishing for an answer for that setup. This is like me asking you if you've stopped beating your wife.
I love that, in your opinion, calling out What-aboutism is "intellectual dishonesty" but using it is totally OK.
I also love that you say you both answered the question, and also that you didn't because it was wrong to ask.
That's be easy to answer for anyone being honest. It's either "I never did", "yes", or "no". Someone who want to hide something may not answer the question though, and likely they'll do something to throw people off, like attacking them for something they did instead (aka, "what about..."). It's avoiding the question.
Calling whataboutism simply serves to set up a double standard for yourself and others. That's what makes it intellectually dishonest. Meanwhile, there is nothing intellectually dishonest about pointing out hypocrisy and double standards.
I answered your question by explaining to you in detail why the question is nonsensical. US is currently supporting fascists in Ukraine, trying to compare that to US supporting allies fighting against fascists in WW2 is backwards. The fact that you can't comprehend that says volumes.
Once again you missed the whole point there which is setting up a false premise and then trying to get the other person to work within that premise. This is precisely what you did with your question. Pointing that out isn't avoiding the question it's calling out your bullshit.
I'm sure Ukrainians agree with you.
The Ukrainians that the regime has been abusing for the past 8 years sure do, here's some CNN reporting you might want to watch https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
Wow I can't believe you'd post a video from known Moscow-backed front organization... CNN?
Putin puppets have infiltrated the highest echelons of liberal media. That's the only plausible explanation for this.
Yeah i bet they want the war to end
That's just fractally wrong.
tell me what's right. I'm ukrainian living in Ukraine. but please, your bs about дамбілі бамбас won't work
btw Im not happy with NATO neither with western history. I just know personally what russian imperialistic shit looks like
Yeah and I'm Ukrainian too, on the Jewish side of my family
I know why I don't have any family left in
and it ain't the Russians
то що ж сталося з твоїми родичами?
their relatives were Jews killed in WW2 by the Nazis and Ukrainian collaborateurs like Bandera. That's abundantly clear from context
not clear at all. no mention about ww2 in his comment. moreover we did not talk about ww2 before, so this is most likely a watabolistic attempt justifying killing ukrainians because some of our ancestors were participating in pogroms of jews.
if we were talking about xx and previous centuries, then I would also mention crimes done by russians, poles and germans toward ukrainians
Regarding antisemitism, I would also mention that pogroms in the russian empire especially in places jews were allowed to live in (see the Pale of Settlement) and in europe were common.
Collaborants were everywhere in europe, america and russia. Regarding latter, see nazi-soviet parade in Brest-Litovsk as an example. But for some reason you only mentrion ukrainians and Bandera.
Yes we are talking about Ukraine right now which is why Ukraine is coming up a lot
as I understand their point they were saying that as Ukrainian nationalists tried to kill their family they are not especially sympathetic to the cause of Ukrainian nationalism. I may be wrong of course but that is what I interpreted their statement as meaning