Important clarification/FAQ: I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
click this dropdown for comments that are very helpful and illustrate key points!
- Detailed summary of the situation if you're wondering what's going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you:
it’s not a rhetorically great meme. at the root it’s just important to listen to what women are expressing by saying they’d choose the bear, but best not to try to double down on the hypothetical or take it personally :)
How does the man/bear discussion disenfranchise and antagonize young men?
I don’t read this [the bear hypothetical] as the discussion disenfranchising young men, rather just stating that the broader disenfranchisement of the working class has its effect of making many men vulnerable to far right rhetoric of a day where many white cis-het men did not have to try, like at all (at least, that’s the rhetoric). I read this as saying that we need to counter these societal issues on multiple fronts; not pandering to right-wing men, while also not letting the far right rhetoric take hold of younger men. Offering a good alternative which actually helps them (leftism) instead.
It’s not on women to soften their complaints of rape and harassment to try to prevent men from becoming incels and Nazis. For Fucks Sake Men can deal with the very mild discomfort of being occasionally reminded women have to always be vigilant.
absolutely agree ❤️which is why i am very thankful for those who put in patience and effort into encouraging young men to see their shortcomings ~ outside the context of women voicing their experiences ~ in order to achieve a more equitable future for all
Edit: This post has now been removed a second time, this time from [email protected] with no reason given. I want to thank the mods of this community for restoring this post here earlier today, and I want to encourage you all:
Be decent to one another
I think this post is a valuable thing given the current state of the Fediverse, please don't fuck it up for us by being toxic in the comments.
That would be cool and all if women reciprocated and listened to men for once.
One of the ways in which some men radicalize is through support towards women that is not appreciated nor reciprocated. Something like "duh, if you didn't support us we'd call you the problem".
Of course this gets personal. If women expect men to listen, could they please listen for once? I'm sure they'd get a lot of insights behind a lot of male behaviors, and particularly why we are upset and why some men turn aggressive and hostile and follow rapists and douchebags.
Want insights on abusive behaviors and how to prevent them? The answers are there. Heck, threads under this post contain the true answers. Listen.
You are not owed reciprocation. You are not owed appreciation. No one is asking you to listen to them. You've taken it upon yourself to respond to a woman making a general statement that's not directed at you. You made that choice.
It's not the responsibility of women to ensure that you do not become radicalized. You have to take ownership of your own life and the choices that you make. That includes the choice to become aggressive, or hostile, or to become a rapist. Women don't make you do those things. You decide to do those things, no matter how you try to justify it. The choice is yours alone.
And women are not owed being listened to and cared for, exactly.
We do it not because we owe something to each other, but because we're empathetic human beings able to listen and care for the discourse that is not about us. But we too have something to say, and it is directly relevant to the substance of the conversation.
And it gets more and more frustrating to see many women venting their anger without actually trying to listen up and see the other side of their story, gaining insights that are useful in combating the very issue they complain about. The solutions are there. It's just that no one actually cares for them.
Nothing good comes from a discourse when one relevant side is shushed every time they speak up. And this is the case.
Now, what is more important to you - venting anger and shifting blame? Or listening in search of insights?
I mean I think it's a pretty mutual like, set of actions that happens as a result of the initial framing of the conversation being like a stupid absurd obvious ragebait hypothetical more than like, a systematic failing in our society. Or, rather, I think the systematic failing of society is that these conversations are only allowed to come about, to blow up, out of those sorts of bad faith framings, rather than happening more naturally on even ground. I think that's the root cause, which I think affects both people groups, rather than it just being like a cultural failing that you might attribute to. I dunno, something else, something not as good as that.
You want someone to listen to you? You want "respect"? You have to give it first. That's how life works. You can either go around being respectful to other people, and if it's reciprocated then great but if not then you move on. Or you can go around being disrespectful to everyone until you get respect first, and people will rightfully treat you the same way.
Women are not venting to you. They are just venting. You are choosing to inject yourself into the conversation and demand that they listen to you first. You're demanding that they accept your solutions without question. And then you wonder why no one wants to listen to you. If you're unwilling to see that, that's your problem.
And that's what men in the feminist conversations normally do - listen and care and respect. I am no exception. (By the way, the reciprocity on that barely ever comes, but that's a topic for another conversation)
But this post isn't just a vent. Would it be correct for me to publicly ask: "would you rather be alone in a forest with a bear or a black person"?
Those questions contain a simple subtext, a comparison of men to dangerous animals, irrespective of any nuance, which is a form of attack on a social group. And I doubt someone just got interested in stats on what women would choose. This is an act of, at best, rude behavior, and at worst, an active hostility, and men see it as such.
This is not a singular case by any means, and it continuously reiterates in one form or the other.
And that's where we have to interject.
Stop comparing yourself to black men. This isn't about race.
Yeah, except....
You don't want to listen. You're just waiting for your turn to talk.
Again, you are purposely putting yourself in that group and getting offended by it. You are not being oppressed just because someone who doesn't even know you exist would rather not be alone with you.
Which is why women are choosing the bear. Unfortunately you don't seem to get that. You don't have to interject, because it's not about you.
Why should I not compare? Both are immutable traits people are born with, and both may serve as a basis for discrimination.
The single time men massively interject to stand up for themselves is immediately claimed as a hostile hijacking and an unwillingness to listen.
No, we do listen. But that doesn't mean we will seal our mouths when we are blatantly attacked.
Purposefully putting myself to what group? Memes? This is not some obscure radfem space, this is a general purpose Internet place. And what's happening here is not okay.
Because there is no difference between a white man and black man. On average, they are physically similar. But there is a massive physical difference between men and women. And before you interject with "ackshually, women can rape men too." No one is disputing that. But how it is done and how often it happens is vastly different. Violent rape is a legitimate concern for every single woman, whether you want to accept it or not.
I literally pointed out what group I was referring to.
You claim that you're willing to listen, but you insist that women listen to you and accept your solutions without question. You claim you're being attacked, when women are asked the question on camera without directing it at any specific person. You claim women are wrong to feel that way, without ever asking why they feel that way and what experiences lead to that decision. You claim you're standing up for yourself, against women that would choose to be alone with a bear rather than a random unknown man.
No one wants your solutions. No one asked for your solutions. No one is attacking you, because no one even knows who you are. No woman is wrong for feeling anything. And no woman should be forced to choose any man are not comfortable with, even if you're a "nice guy". It's not about you...