cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/15035901
this post was submitted on 06 May 2024
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Devil's Advocacy, read at your own risk:
According to the police, they evacuated the civilians from the area and engaged in a gunfight with the compound which housed known terrorists called MOVE, an anti-government and anti-technology religious organization whose members were all black and changed their last names to Africa as a form of symbolism who had years earlier killed a police officer leading to a lifelong conviction for 9 of it's members.
The terrorists were armed with automatic weapons and a gas generator on the roof of the compound. After the 2 small bombs opened a hole on the roof and took out the generator, the terrorists supposedly even shot at firefighters who approached the scene which allowed the fire to spread. 61 home burnt with Six adults and five children as fatalities.
My take: The police should not have automatic anti-tank rifles or C4 Satchel Bombs. They should never have attempted to preemptively remove MOVE members from any residence, regardless of the status of their parole. This is not the job for people with less training than the people who cut hair for a living. The city held on to some of the corpses for 35 years, and all of the children were cremated and buried in unmarked graves, which is pretty fucked up.
But also, I'm certainly not on MOVE's side in this situation. Those morons fucked around and found out. The fact that there are people around today who know about all this and wanted to pick up that banner for themselves is beyond moronic.
*terrorists as labeled by the fucking mayor...
We got goddamned Vote Quimby down here deciding who's a terrorist because they got warrants, trash, and a bullhorn being a public nuisance.
Edit: -Terrorists armed with a... gas generator (commence pearl clutching)
-what the actual fucking fuck did the Keystone Kops think would happen if they dropped explosives on the gas generator in hopes of "taking out the "rooftop bunker"" which was most likely the goddamned rooftop access. They had to know. And if the didn't, they were criminally stupid.
-you mention that anyone picking up their banner today is (some derogatory term I forget). Can you really not see why someone would look to extremes when faced with systemic oppression?
-and: 2A rights for everyone! "oh, only WASPy, good, christian tightey-whitey men, sorry - not you... When any minority holds a gun they're obviously criminals." and yes, I know there were warrants and shootouts in this case. But justice wasn't served.
I see a cult with a fortified compound and armed soldiers, with multiple missed paroles and a history of armed violence going back over a decade. If they're not terrorist then what the fuck are they?
They are also victims, none of the things that occurred on May 13th should have ever happened with competent and respectful leadership and negotiation perhaps by the FBI or actual service members, but being a victim doesn't erase every stupid indecent thing people have ever done.
Those children died in the cult's basement. MOVE continued shooting at Firefighters after their roof burst into flames.
Sounds awfully familiar.
Thank goodness it wasn't the same scale as that event, but at least the FBI attempted to negotiate and staved off a full offensive until 51 days had passed. If the Philadelphia police had shown that kind of respect and restraint then things might have ended a lot differently for the MOVE members.
And yet the Waco siege is still a rallying cry for anti-government groups accusing the FBI and DEA of unjust, violent overreaction, while the MOVE bombing is not. Huh, I wonder what the difference is? /s
Could unironically be the difference in body count.
That's possible, but that doesn't explain the same feeling about the Ruby Ridge incident.
Terrorist is just a loaded word. Like Hamas is a "terrorist organization" but the state of Israel isn't.
Terrorism often boils down to "enacting violence against systems of oppression". Is the IDF a terrorist organization? What about the DoD? These organizations use violence to perpetuate existing systems of oppression, causing vastly more harm than any domestic "terrorist" organization ever will.
While these 11 people were being killed by the state for being "terrorists", the CIA was backing fascists (contras) to overthrow democratically elected socialists in Nicaragua. Is the CIA a terrorist organization?
No man they literally threatened to bomb other countries for shit happening in the us, that's everyone's definition of terrorism.
This misses the point. If we're being technical, Hamas/MOVE is obviously a terrorist organization. Trying to convince me that they are isn't going to change my position, because I already believe that.
It's just that in-so-far as Hamas/MOVE etc. are terrorist organizations, the CIA/IDF are far larger ones. They inflict terror and use violence for political gain, the only difference is they're the ones in power so they decide who is a terrorist.
That's the problem with the word. The IDF and Hamas are both violent terror groups that shouldn't exist, but Hamas only exists as a result of the IDF's genocidal campaign, and yet we only call Hamas a terror group. It's deeply problematic.
Correct.
That's whataboutism, multiple wrongs don't make a right and none of MOVE's actions are forgiven by this argument.
Calling this whataboutism is like responding to the claim "people have a biological urge to reproduce" as a naturalistic fallacy.
You're using the word in sorta the right ballpark (I did make a comparison, e.g a "what about"), however not every time someone says "what about X" are they committing a fallacy.
My entire point was how terrorist is a loaded word, that we only use it to describe one side (the side not in power), even though the technical definition obviously fits organizations in power. Making a comparison to demonstrate my literal only point isn't fallacious.
There were native american terror groups, yet the U.S government that literally genocided millions of native Americans isn't a terror organization, despite their use of terror and violence to achieve political goals. It's a word with clear problematic etymology.
The CIA supporting Fascism in South America has fuck all to do with a confrontation between militarized police and a cult on May 13th 1985 in Philadelphia. If you think that's not whataboutism then you're dumb as a sack of bricks.
Yeah no need to get this hostile.
The word "terrorist" was used, and getting into the etymology of the word is best exemplified by how large "non-terrorist" organizations operate exactly like large terrorist organizations.
Yeah but what about the CIA, right? Those are an example of terrorists, right? But yeah what about Hillary Clinton's Emails? But what about the cost of recycling solar? What about it, right? What about those, you got an answer for those?
Exactly. And saying "what about" isn't always a fallacy. That's like thinking anyone says a natural fact they're committing a naturalistic fallacy.
But what about the Grand Canyon?
Yup, you can also make comparisons to irrelevant things. Not all comparisons are fallacious.
The way the CIA/IDF behave compared to other "terrorist" organizations is relevant to the etymology of the word. I don't see how the Grand Canyon relates to any point you or I made.
But what about the moon landing?
Oh wow, I didn't get it until this message, fuck I'm an idiot. All comparisons are always fallacious. Thanks for helping me out, friend.
But what about Jeffrey Epstein? Jeffrey Epstein ran a terrorist organization and this cult ran a terrorist organization and therefor Jeffrey Epstein is involved in the MOVE cult. And the CIA. /sarcasm
Yeah, that was my point. I can't believe I didn't see what my own point was until you cleared it up for me. It wasn't about how "terrorist was a loaded word" even though that's what I said.
I'm glad you're here to clear up the difference between what I said and what I meant, otherwise I'd be genuinely lost.
Keep it coming.
Oppressed groups have an internationally recognized right to resist.
This was 1985. If they were discriminated against then they could have settled it in the courts, not by forming a cult and fortifying a compound.
Idk, I'm several drinks in atm, but you'd make big money picking cherries.
Alos Warrants for making terroristic threats, illegal possession of firearms, parole violations, contempt of court
And automatic weapons. You used the ... to erase the automatic weapons part.
Wow, not knowing where people store their generators is the bar for criminal stupidity? I have a different bar
Ah yes, story we hear every week outta murica, them white folks, shooting their automatic assault rifles at the cops and getting away with it
/s
Seriously, if you start a business picking cherries, I'd like to invest, I haven't seen anyone so skilled since 2020
I'm not saying it's the same but the Bundy standoff comes to mind as a recent example where a buncha good ol' white boys barricaded themselves in a compound, and they weren't bombed. They didn't fire upon cops but they did imply that they were ready to if they were raided.
Everybody is in agreement that the cops grossly mishandled the situation on May 13th 1985, and it serves as a great argument for the demilitarization of police in the USA. The problem is some people in this forum want us to think this was a random unprompted massacre of ordinary people, which is pretty far off the mark.
A bit boozy myself, so here goes:
B) you called out the gas generator like it was some Lclandestine munition.
B) Not sure what a generator has to do with Lclandestine munitions, or what those are