this post was submitted on 22 Mar 2024
134 points (100.0% liked)

chapotraphouse

13198 readers
375 users here now

Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.

No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer

Vaush posts go in the_dunk_tank

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 months ago (5 children)

Isn't this just bribing local governments so they can continue to exploit and export Africa's natural resources?

[–] [email protected] 49 points 7 months ago (1 children)

China giving loans to Africa is predatory.

China buying resources from Africa is extractive.

China building infrastructure in Africa is a debt trap.

Now, China donating things to Africa is a bribe.

What interactions are China allowed to have with Africa?

[–] [email protected] 22 points 7 months ago

None, socialism is autarky.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I think calling it a "bribe" is needlessly antagonistic. China's policy towards small governments is pretty clear and consistent - "we don't care if you're a colonial puppet, a postcolonial nationalist movement, or religious fundamentalists, we want to do trade with you and we're willing to offer better deals than the Western countries are, up to and including building the infrastructure needed so that we can do more trade with you in the future."

[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Fair, but everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that these investments/loans are often tied to the extraction and export of Africa's natural resources. (lithium, cobalt, timber, etc.) I understand that global trade is vital for Africa to develop, I just fear people are seeing China's actions in the region through rose-tinted glasses.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 7 months ago (1 children)

There's a lot of things pointing to China being less exploitative than Western trade, but it'd be nice if someone did a comprehensive analysis a la the Hickel study.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I hadn't heard of that study before, thanks. Its nice to see these things empirically proven.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

China has no power projection, and has never toppled a sovereign country. The global capitalist economy fucking sucks, but China's strategy is to place itself inside of it and help third world countries develop their own infrastructure. Sadly these countries can only participate in the global economy through the export of raw materials, but through this process of production the wealth that is created is no longer being extracted solely to the monopoly capitalists in the first world and more and more of it is being kept within the countries the wealth has been created in, to further develop their countries.

If China kept solely to itself, the third world would have no options other than the neoliberalization and debt reforms of the IMF and world bank that has stolen from and destabilized them for decades.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 7 months ago (1 children)

81 free vehicles instead of 81 vehicles worth of IMF loans... dunno which is worse. monke-beepboop

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago (6 children)

"Free", that's why its called a bribe

[–] [email protected] 41 points 7 months ago (1 children)

i made my wife dinner last night and i didnt even charge her for the service. isnt that just a bribe so she will continue to love me and snarf my dong?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I'll take "false equivalency" for 1000, Alex.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 7 months ago

lol it isnt take your lgocial fallacy fedora wearing reddit replies elsewhere, nerd

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 months ago

Go be a lib elsewhere

[–] [email protected] 17 points 7 months ago

Bribery and aid being used for closer relations are not the same thing. A bribe is under the table, this on its own is serving China's interests. They don't need to be slipped some resource extraction money secretly for this to be a good deal for them. It is a country that just kicked out the French and US, is threatened by Nigeria, has a left oriented government, a ton of natural resources previously dominated by western firms, and is in need of allies and arms.

If China gave them all of these free of charge with no expectation that is still a huge bargain for China. Even thinking cynically it is stupid to treat this as a bribe. Burkina Faso needs this shit, China benefits from breaking western hegemony

[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 months ago

Lmao you have placed China in a no-win unfalsifiable position, a common sinophobic and anti-communist tactic.

China gives material aid for free: Chinese Bribery

China gives a cheap subsidized loan and even writes off tons of the debt: Chinese Debt Trap

China cooperates to build infrastructure: Chinese imperialism

Do you think socialism is when you huddle alone in a corner? Any and all interactions are being labeled by you as imperialist, when in fact imperialism is defined by asymmetrical extraction but everything China does is mutually consensual and mutually beneficial

[–] [email protected] 27 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Not if the aid actually helps them develop economic independence so they're not beholden to western finance.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 18 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You may find the historical material realities of Ghana and Burkina Faso are drastically different as are their relationships with the “international rules based order” that determines legality and legitimacy in the eyes of the West.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago

"wait, africa isnt a country?"

[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Yes Chinese private firms often do shady shit, that's bad but it's also sadly part of the process with the Dengist strategy of using capitalist trade to develop productive forces so socialism can compete with the West.

Meanwhile the Chinese state provides a lot of aid to developing nations targeted by the west, like Cuba, Bolivia and several African nations. These do also benefit China by giving them more training partners but it's not purely extractive, their aid also helps them develop their own productive forces so their economies aren't purely based on resource extraction and export and so can they can more resilience against western sanctions. I can't find the video now for the life of me, but there is one out there of some western official trying to talk to an African politician about "Chinese imperialism" and the African guy is just like "when you come here we get lectures, when China comes we get a port".

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 months ago

Yeah I tried googling it but it seems to have disappeared from the internet for whatever reason

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 months ago

Okay, based African politician. Thanks for the perspective.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I don't know much but Traoré seems based.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 7 months ago (1 children)

He was a member of a Muslim Marxist group in college and cited Sankara as an inspiration. I'm cautiously optimistic.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 7 months ago