On the day of the killings, Veltman denied that he went out on the day with the intention of conducting murders despite the fact he had written a manifesto, put on a military helmet, a bulletproof vest, and a white shirt with a cross on it that was a reference to an online meme about crusaders killing Muslims.
Dude is just trying to save his skin and pass the blame for what he did elsewhere.
You're right, but the blame does lie with multiple people too. Yeah, his only chance of saving his skin is if other's responsibility somehow diminishes his own culpability, but he will soon find out this is not a zero-sum game.
But shouting "fire!" In a crowded theater isn't free speech and will get you a jail sentence if it creates a disaster. Infowars (and Alex Jones specifically), and other organisations (they identify libertarian and mainstream conservative content plus youtube algorithm) also need to be held to account for inflammatory speech that encourages violence; provided that it can be demonstrated that they're pushing dangerous misinformation. Especially if they are making money doing it.
I won't hold my breath waiting to see that happen though.
He didn't intend to do any murdering, he just was fully prepared just in case the opportunity for some murdering came up. You know how one might pack a few snacks just in case they get peckish between meals.
Ah the Rittenhouse defense
denied that he went out on the day with the intention of conducting murders
What did he expect, that they would respawn?
These are the most important bits:
“I consumed libertarian content, mainstream conservative content,” he said on the stand. “Then I slowly started looking at some alt-right content on YouTube, and then stumbled across some of the more fringe.”
The content he described focused on the Great Replacement—a popular conspiracy theory among the far-right focused on minorities taking over white majority countries—and the idea that Muslim violence is under-covered by mainstream media. He said that he consumed conspiratorial content like Alex Jones’ Infowars where he found “conspiracies that Middle Eastern wars were a conspiracy to try to bring Muslim immigration into Europe.” This then led him to white nationalist content.
He said that he consumed conspiratorial content like Alex Jones’ Infowars where he found “conspiracies that Middle Eastern wars were a conspiracy to try to bring Muslim immigration into Europe.” This then led him to white nationalist content.
I'm not surprised he said that. Alex Jones is a stepping stone toward radicalization but I consider it a distinction without a difference. Alex Jones has been a white nationalist his entire career despite his shallow denials and subterfuge. The 'Knowledge Fight' podcast has done an excellent job of documenting the fact that Alex Jones has never been a "harmless crank" by examining and debunking his own contemporary claims and those going back to the earliest days of his career. The only difference between Alex Jones and blatant white nationalist content is his conscious use of dog whistles. But even those have mostly been abandoned now that he's seemingly drunk every time he records a show.
It's funny because at the beginning of that show Dan does think Alex is just some kind of a grandstanding/ridiculous pill, gold and water filter huckster. He was listening and watching ironically, largely for cheap laughs, and as kind of a game to peel back the layers of the "turn the frogs gay" onion.
It took a decent amount of time for them to get a handle on how awful he truly was, but more importantly, the intent. When you look at it through the lens of the current episodes you can see that the beliefs were always there but that there was way more effort to maintain the mask and disguise the true sources. Pretty much like you said.
Part of what makes the show interesting, in hindsight, is how long he was given the benefit of the doubt. And I say that as more of a testament to who Dan and Jordan are and the difference of the times from then and now. His fascination morphs into disgust and the novelty becomes more of an accidental chronicle of right white radicalization. I wonder who Alex will say was really behind this.
I’ve listened to episodes here and there, but your explanation about how Dan changed over time is interesting.
A few questions :
When did Dan start to realize this wasn’t a joke (~ how long after the show started), and was it just Alex being Alex or was there a major moment where it finally hit him?
After the show started, how long did it take them to get caught up to current broadcasts? When did the podcast and Alex “sync up”? Did his hardcore alt right turn begin around the 2016 election? I know he was spouting all the racist fear mongering things during Obama’s term.
Thanks! I love the concept of the show, but I cannot take that much Alex at one time. They’re doing good work though.
Too long of an answer:
So that is hard for me to pinpoint, just because there's close to 900 episodes now and I think I started listening in like 2019ish? The show started in 2017 and I remember after I listened for a few weeks I decided to start from the beginning and was surprised by how different the feeling of their approach was. I would say by 2019 they we're much less willing to write off gross stuff and were more concerned with Alex providing cover for extremist patriot guests. Post election and J6 they are pretty on the nose about calling out what they perceive as Alex's more deep seeded motives. With the final form of just general disgust and every info wars episode being a new low probably arising around the 2022 sandy hook defamation trial in Texas. Maybe a little before that. I'd say that the change in perception very much follows the arch and evolution of not only Alex, but much of the country letting the mask slip. So yeah, I'd say it's gradual.
As I recall the show was always a mixture of both current info wars episodes and past ones that Dan found interesting or silly. Sometimes what they covered would be dictated by how interesting (or not) the current info wars episodes were and then over the last maybe 2 years they would go to older episodes when Alex was in "time out." Which is basically when hes on such a horrible rip of racist, xenophobic, homophobic, incendiary garbage that Dan doesn't want to listen or give it air on their show. More recently though they cover that stuff when it comes out. So I'd say he's put mental health aside and feels more of a need to document some of these things to the audience. It's really horrible stuff and you can see pieces of the through line that led this guys mental state and the murders.
Alex's shtick of being "beyond the left right paradigm" and masquerading around as some libertarian with secret truths probably mostly ended around 2019-2020 where he got increasingly dependent upon drawing in more audience solely do to his support of Trump. He also has Stuart Rhodes, Roger Stone and Michael Flynn on a bunch in that time frame. So tying those worlds together was very lucrative for him with the level of access he was getting to people Trump was pardoning and putting reliance on. I think that's the best way to look at his increasing influence and role from 2016 on. It always mirrors where the right is going because he wants a cut of the cultist grift and then will amplify deceptions to create new market space and solidify his position as someone with secret knowledge. This ebb and flow cycle creates a feedback loop and this guy who is just making up shit to sell garbage supplements is eventually selling insurrection. Recently it shows itself even more clearly. Alex goes on 5 minute tantrums saying REAL gross stuff, and it's just him trying to get a racist or homophobic clip to go viral out of desperation for money.
Go listen to the Project Camelot episodes about space raptors if you want some more zany fun stuff. It's also absolutely worth listening to their episodes covering the Sandy Hook cases (especially the ones called formulaic objections) and the debriefs they do with Mark Bankston (who is the prosecuting attorney and a listener.) It gives excellent perspective to hear Alex in front of a court and how he turns on and off without control.
This is a fantastic answer. Thanks!
And is Mark Bankston the guy who told Alex that his lawyers fucked up and sent over all this extra stuff from his phone that they didn’t mean to?
I was watching that live! It was so great! His face! LOL….fucking legend.
Yeah I’m definitely saving those to listen to!
It just hit Dan that what Alex is doing isn't funny but dangerous. It was episode 174 where Dan has his realization that Alex has always been super racist and how that affects the things Alex says and does.
When the show started they covered current broadcasts. Soon after they started doing regular time travel episodes where they would put Alex in 'time out' and cover a past episode. Episode 174 is one of those episodes. It's the juxtaposition between the two times that put it all in focus for Dan. If you are looking for best episodes to go back and listen to, 174 is near the top and really addresses your questions.
Oh wow, that last part about wars in the middle east being a conspiracy is totally new to me. I suppose it's no less unbelievable than the planet being a flat disc or moon landing hoaxes.
Check out way back machine to look at early YouTube and you'll find so many videos with this crap and all of them had images of crusaders because those were the groups making these videos. They were organized racist Nazi fucks who built up this imagery of a new holy war. But it was too obvious the following waves racist social media posting just hid that it was coming from these fucking losers.
Fucking YouTube my people.
I am South African. Considering a move to another country so we were watching expat videos from that country. Fuck me if YT didn’t take two searches to start serving up content about white slums and the impact of Affirmative Action on the whites of SA.
To be clear I want to move for an adventure and to further my career. I’m mixed race and have no beef with AA, YouTube wants name to be a frustrated white person who wants to leave due to politics. Get fucked.
Hey Canada, can the confessed murder of most of an entire family inspired by far right propeganda finally be enough justification to ban that content in this country?
Seriously, can I just ask my MP this question? Can we all ask our MPs this question?
Man, Cheryl Gallant sends me enough crazy flyers already.
How do these people watch conspiratorial content and miss the fact that pale male European colonialism literally is the conspiracy?
How is it a conspiracy? It's a fact that's been quite well known for hundreds of years
That's mostly the modern understanding, but the word also still means people working together to achieve something.
How about slapping an "aiding and abetting" on Infowars?
The Qanon cultists in congress would never allow that.
That's not an issue for congress, this is a legal affair and job of the DA and the court.
The blame my upbringing defense. Nice.
Well yeah, how do you think people become who they are? Magic?
Yep. The guys a piece of shit but pieces of shit are not born that way. That level of hate is learned.
Yeah we pretty much already just assumed that
We 100% knew that. What I'm curious about is how this shapes legal precedent moving forward. We have legal testimony proving the stochastic terror risk to right-wing media outlets like this, which may help clamp down on this rhetoric down the road.
"It isn't my fault I was a monster! It was that nasty Alex Jones! Honest! YA GOTTA BELIEVE ME!"
Yeah, pull the other one.
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