this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2024
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Lemmy.World Announcements

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founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Hey all,

In light of recent events concerning one of our communities (/c/vegan), we (as a team) have spent the last week working on how to address better some concerns that had arisen between the moderators of that community and the site admin team. We always strive to find a balance between the free expression of communities hosted here and protecting users from potentially harmful content.

We as a team try to stick to a general rule of respect and consideration for the physical and mental well-being of our users when drafting new rules and revising existing ones. Furthermore, we've done our best to try to codify these core beliefs into the additions to the ToS and a new by-laws section.

ToS Additions

That being said, we will be adding a new section to our “terms of service” concerning misinformation. While we do try to be as exact as reasonably able, we also understand that rules can be up to interpretation as well. This is a living document, and users are free to respectfully disagree. We as site admins will do our best to consider the recommendations of all users regarding potentially revising any rules.

Regarding misinformation, we've tried our best to capture these main ideas, which we believe are very reasonable:

  • Users are encouraged to post information they believe is true and helpful.
  • We recommend users conduct thorough research using reputable scientific sources.
  • When in doubt, a policy of “Do No Harm”, based on the Hippocratic Oath, is a good compass on what is okay to post.
  • Health-related information should ideally be from peer-reviewed, reproducible scientific studies.
    • Single studies may be valid, but often provide inadequate sample sizes for health-related advice.
    • Non-peer-reviewed studies by individuals are not considered safe for health matters.

We reserve the right to remove information that could cause imminent physical harm to any living being. This includes topics like conversion therapy, unhealthy diets, and dangerous medical procedures. Information that could result in imminent physical harm to property or other living beings may also be removed.

We know some folks who are free speech absolutists may disagree with this stance, but we need to look out for both the individuals who use this site and for the site itself.

By-laws Addition

We've also added a new by-laws section as well as a result of this incident. This new section is to better codify the course of action that should be taken by site and community moderators when resolving conflict on the site, and also how to deal with dormant communities.

This new section provides also provides a course of action for resolving conflict with site admin staff, should it arise. We want both the users and moderators here to feel like they have a voice that is heard, and essentially a contact point that they can feel safe going to, to “talk to the manager” type situation, more or less a new Lemmy.World HR department that we've created as a result of what has happened over the last week.

Please feel free to raise any questions in this thread. We encourage everyone to please take the time to read over these new additions detailing YOUR rights and how we hope to better protect everyone here.

https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#80-misinformation

https://legal.lemmy.world/bylaws/

Sincerely,

FHF / LemmyWorld Operations Team


EDIT:

We will be releasing a separate post regarding the moderation incident in the next 24-48 hours, just getting final approval from the team.

EDIT 2 (2024-08-31):

We've posted a response, sorry for the delay.

👉 https://lemmy.world/post/19264848 👈

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (7 children)

Walk into a vet office and tell them you want your cat to eat a vegan diet and watch their eyes roll at the speed of sound out of their skull

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

There are enough pets with a vegan diet to chose from. Why pick a cat if it's important to you. People really are out of their mind.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (6 children)

While I disagree with the stance the vegans took in this. The ~~mods~~ admins reaction to the situation was way out of proportion, and it definitely seems like you're updating the ToS to justify what he did retroactively instead of addressing his behavior, which was way out of line.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (16 children)

Oh man this ones got some flavour to sink ones teeth into 😅

I take the side of the admin. If someone can't accept or understand that a cat eats a meat based diet then they deserve to have reality thrown in their face. Better than some poor animals being tortured.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago (9 children)

If someone can't accept or understand that a cat eats a meat based diet then they deserve to have reality thrown in their face. Better than some poor animals being tortured.

Dang, is that what happened? It's sad to think that there are people mistreating animals that they care about accidentally, through trying to apply their own human morals and rules to them.

Cats are hunters, they eat meat. If that's an issue for your home then fair enough, your house your rules. Just don't get a cat, or a carnivorous pet in general. There's lots of cool pets out there that are herbivores :-)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (6 children)

I think it's less applying their morals to the cat and more not wanting to support the meat industry. That said, yeah just don't have a cat. I expect many vegans aren't too big on the concept of pet ownership anyway.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Vegan here. Love my cat. My cat eats meat. End of story.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Wow, a normal person on the internet. Thank you for existing.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Cats aren't just hunters. They're obligate carnivores. That means they literally can't get all the nutrients they need from a plant based diet. They need the vitamin A in meat in the same way that we need vitamin C.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (58 children)

I had no idea what this one was about. I got banned a few months ago for insisting in c/vegan that animals that eat a predominantly carnivorous diet should not be fed a vegan diet. I'm a cat lover and dog liker and believe that it is animal abuse. I'm glad to see this change.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (12 children)

I'm honestly not sure if a vegan cat diet is possible or not, but random people giving unqualified advice that could easily lead a less knowledgeable person to harm an animal is a problem. What should have been done in this case is for a mod or admin to shut the discussion down with a note telling people to consult a qualified veterinarian regarding any change to their pets diet.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's great that the admins are putting so much effort into getting this right.

Sadly, I don't think this is the way. Adding this to the ToS means you admins will always be in the centre of every unwinnable situation that arises.

You need a committee to deal with these issues on a case by case basis. There are many advantages to this:

  • You can be tough but flexible and adaptive
  • you can enlist the help of people with more time
  • you can enlist the help of people with experience writing policies
  • committee members can resign or be discontinued when they become embroiled in some shit storm.
  • you can retain veto power

I don't want to be critical of the ToS because someone has put a lot of thought into it, but the most charitable thing I can say is that its unlikely to serve its intended purpose.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

Respectfully, I believe this incident serves more as a learning opportunity for the admin team rather than a reason to amend the rules.

This isn’t the first time I’ve observed Rooki acting inappropriately for an admin of a community. As an admin of a (admittedly much smaller) corner of the internet, I’ve learned to interact with users in a way that is polite and ensures they feel safe and heard. This is at least the second instance where I’ve seen Rooki respond emotionally and rather adversarially towards users, which has, in my view, undermined their credibility, to the point that I hope to avoid future interactions with them.

I understand that managing LW, one of the largest and general-purpose instances, especially with Lemmy’s still rather limited moderation tools, is challenging, and I appreciate the hard work all of you, including Rooki, put into maintaining it and making it run as smoothly as it does. I'm NOT asking for their removal; however, considering that this is not the first time I’ve seen Rooki behave uncivilly and antagonistically towards users, I hope that this will be a formative experience for them.

(Edit for clarity)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Thank you for this comment.

I've interacted with Rooki a few times, most of them were nice, but I've also seen Rooki being indeed unicivilly and antagonistically towards users.

Let's see what the update brings.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Just want to pitch in as an outsider that I too have experienced Rooki acting inappropriately and frankly immaturely. This has happened multiple times and it doesn't give a good light to the rest of the Lemmy.world administration that they seemingly tolerate Rookis behaviour. It's not up to me, especially as I am not even a lemmy.world user, but in my opinion Rooki should not be an admin following these incidents.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I've experienced Rooki acting inappropriately and immaturely as well. This recent incident is part of a pattern of behavior.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

Cats need a meat

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (12 children)

The biggest issue with Reddit and Facebook was that they let stuff like this stick around it and eventually consume it.

It's a good policy imho, and I'm happy to see it

Science should prevail

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)

As a former site admin, I will say right now that leaving any kind of rule "open to interpretation" is the WORST thing you could do. The only interpretation of the rules of your site should be the your (the site admin's) interpretation. That's it. Rules should be easy to understand and easily convey the correct interpretation.

Leaving the rules open to interpretation only leads to disagreements and arguments. It is better for users to have concrete rules with a reliably consistent correct interpretation than for everyone to complain because their interpretation of a rule lets them do whatever they want. Just my two cents on that.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I’m glad to see site-wide action taken against the spread of harmful disinformation.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (7 children)

There's a fine line between misinformation and "subjectively offensive information". To me, this seems like it was a pretty clear case of abuse of power regardless of where you stand on the original issue and retroactively changing the rules to excuse that abuse does not bode well for this community.

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