this post was submitted on 12 May 2024
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nuanceposting (lemmy.cafe)
submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
 

Important clarification/FAQ: I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!

I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)

click this dropdown for comments that are very helpful and illustrate key points!

it’s not a rhetorically great meme. at the root it’s just important to listen to what women are expressing by saying they’d choose the bear, but best not to try to double down on the hypothetical or take it personally :)

How does the man/bear discussion disenfranchise and antagonize young men?

@Boo

I don’t read this [the bear hypothetical] as the discussion disenfranchising young men, rather just stating that the broader disenfranchisement of the working class has its effect of making many men vulnerable to far right rhetoric of a day where many white cis-het men did not have to try, like at all (at least, that’s the rhetoric). I read this as saying that we need to counter these societal issues on multiple fronts; not pandering to right-wing men, while also not letting the far right rhetoric take hold of younger men. Offering a good alternative which actually helps them (leftism) instead.

@Neato

It’s not on women to soften their complaints of rape and harassment to try to prevent men from becoming incels and Nazis. For Fucks Sake Men can deal with the very mild discomfort of being occasionally reminded women have to always be vigilant.

absolutely agree ❤️which is why i am very thankful for those who put in patience and effort into encouraging young men to see their shortcomings ~ outside the context of women voicing their experiences ~ in order to achieve a more equitable future for all

Edit: This post has now been removed a second time, this time from [email protected] with no reason given. I want to thank the mods of this community for restoring this post here earlier today, and I want to encourage you all:

Be decent to one another

I think this post is a valuable thing given the current state of the Fediverse, please don't fuck it up for us by being toxic in the comments.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 5 months ago
[–] [email protected] 20 points 5 months ago

Hopefully people see this and stop posting ragebait 🙏

[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago (2 children)

we need a nuance posting rule on the internet i think.

For every sensational shitpost you must provide at least one nuance.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago (1 children)

honestly i would smash the subscribe button so hard on a c/nuanceposting community. verbose and carefully worded memes are my absolute jam. 😎🙂‍↕️

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

eudaimonia on dbzer0 has what is essentially the spiritual precedent to that community. You'd probably like it, it's not super busy or anything right now, but we could always use more users over there.

No memey shit over there though, it's pretty explicitly focused on the underlying aspects of this kind of stuff.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

thats the one! Hope to see you around there someday. I'm semi active whenever i feel like being mad about something lol.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (7 children)

there is only one truth, and it is that there is no gender war, only misdirection from class warfare that has monetized and monopolized even our interpersonal, romantic, and sexual connection.

when people don't have problems, you can't sell them solutions.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The shackles of sexism, racism, and homophobia do not simply fall off when you accept class consciousness. These are still fights for awareness which must continue to be fought. Otherwise, we risk allowing toxic mentalities into our midst, which will only serve to alienate and expel our minority brethren.

The cages built by the state which cordon us off from one another exist in the mind, but they are very real in impact. We must fight by destroying the cages in each of our thoughts, and pass our knowledge to others so they can do the same. That is the only means to stand as one.

Let's also not forget that there are very real shackles placed on many groups - many real cages - which we must work to destroy as well.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Those who do not move do not notice their chains.

Noticing your chains and beginning to rattle them, and encouraging your peers to do the same, is the first step to releasing yourself from them, but it is not the only step.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago

Here's Orwell in "Homage to Catalonia":

"There were perhaps a thousand men at the barracks, and a score or so of women, apart from the militiamen's wives who did the cooking. There were still women serving in the militias, though not very many. In the early battles they had fought side by side with the men as a matter of course. It is a thing that seems natural in time of revolution. Ideas were changing ready, however. The militiamen had to be kept out of the riding-school while the women were drilling there because they laughed at the women and put them off. A few months earlier no one would have seen anything comic in a woman handling a gun."

This was in an overwhelmingly leftist camp. Orwell sees glimpses of an anarchist collective based on mutual aid popping up. Yet, sexisim clearly persisted after a period where it had been pushed aside.

These issues don't go away just because people become class conscious.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It’s true that nuance does indeed often get lost in online debates, so I appreciate you for making this post.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

thanks! i hope this format can catch on im kind of proud of it lol

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago

OK, seriously, I thought I've spent enough free time on Lemmy telling you to watch Barbie here for some of you here to, you know, actually watch Barbie.

So let me be clear: it is ultimately the Barbies' complete disregard for the Kens' feelings that led to the Kens being poisoned by the idea of the Patriarchy and all the subsequent mess in Barbieland, so way ahead of you on 2, to reiterate, what the Kens did was wrong, but you have got to take a nuanced approach to these things.

Also, on 1, all I said was that unlike the meme I feel that bears are terrifying, and then some weirdo came out of the woodwork and got really angry and start talking over me and calling me a dumbass and I was making it all about me somehow. The irony was so palpable I was at a loss for words.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

What? Men are going to adopt shitty beliefs and exercise their privilege no matter what and nothing can be done about it. /s

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The gamification of social media means any attempt to draw a bright line of social conduct will just end in people deploying that rule in the most cynical context.

"Believe all women" means we're going to slap generic women's faces in our Avis and lie out our asses.

"Let people enjoy things" means reframing the most deplorable and nakedly hostile conduct as some kind of secret fetish you have to support.

"Protect Kids" means posting baby pictures under every comment and saying "This is who you're talking to".

"Act like an adult" means getting CP in your DMs.

When its all a fucking game and you score points by causing other people mental anguish, the only thing any sane healthy person can do is log off, touch grass, and get as far away from the hellscape that is social media as possible.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

That's an interesting perspective. They would say the same thing about "touching grass" when tv became popular. The scenarios you describe are more extreme versions of beaver and butthole are corrupting your kids.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

They would say the same thing about “touching grass” when tv became popular.

They'd be right. TV absolutely rots your perception of the outside world. I can't count the number of elderly people who have become shut-ins, thanks to the continuous bombardment of Sinclair Media crime-blotter local news coverage. People ingest too much of this crap and suddenly they're too terrified to leave their homes.

The scenarios you describe are more extreme versions of beaver and butthole are corrupting your kids.

The Christ-o-fascists who lost their shit over MTV didn't want kids to stop watching TV entirely. They just wanted the kids to watch religious broadcasts instead.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Growing up with them I can certifiably say you're wrong. As a result I was out in the world doing things I look back on and think were fucking insane.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Ever wonder how you survived? I certainly do

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I know for the most part I was always trying to be conservative with my friends and though we were taking risks I would try to draw the line somewhere. I think that helped but a lot of the time I was encouraging it too. Otherwise just dumb luck.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago

no u ❤️

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago (4 children)

Social media doesn't often reward kindness, but that's what is needed. Show kindness to young men, when you can. They need better guidance.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

Many people conflate kindness with weakness, however, in reality it is the opposite. It is easier to tear someone down, than to build something. The tendency to tear other people down comes from a need to feel higher in the social pecking order which they cannot attain with their lack of ability.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

So much this. ❤️ But it’s tough.

I am making this post coming out of a comment section where women expressing their most personal and horrific experiences are getting majority downvotes, while men are yapping on and on about “the problem with feminism these days” over them and getting no shortage of likes. It’s frankly disturbing to witness.

I am trying to be kind with this (and all) posts because I recognize it is what is needed. But I also fully understand the plight of other women who get frustrated or even lash out.

Take a deep breath. Listen to one another. Be kind.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

POST RESTORED THABK YOU MODS

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

HOW DARE YOU /s

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (7 children)

Could someone explain number 2 to me? A lot of big words, and I have trouble to understand what it's trying to say.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago (6 children)

It's claiming that pushing men out of civilized communities, spaces and conversations ultimately leads to them embracing more accepting alt-right ideologies and movements.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago
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[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Young men are much more likely to be non-conforming to sexist cultural/gender norms and stereotypes, which often leads to them being ostracized more by general society and makes it easier for grifters (like manosphere influencers) to take ahold of them and radicalize them with alt-right and/or extremely misogynistic beliefs.

There are plenty of amazing feminist role models, but the right's form of propoganda is so much more enticing because it tells you that everyone else is the problem and you're superior to others, rather than ask you to give a shot at understanding reality like leftist influences do. That goes with anything on the right, fascists are a lot more motivating and good at gaining/rallying radical supporters because it's so much easier to get people on your side if you're allowed to lie about everything. So naturally, impressionable – and extremely vulnerable and emotionally volatile – young men gravitate towards the extreme negative influences due to how our society and education is poorly set up to prevent that.

And in this case how sexism and toxic masculinity is deeply ingrained into our society that so many of these young men are made to feel like they're "not real men" by those around them, it really pushes them towards this even more. Rather than reject the idea of a "real man" or a "real woman", they embrace them even more and convince themselves that they are the realest men, and OTHERS are pathetic.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It's a lot easier to identify with the bad guys if you're assumed to be a bad guy.

"Women think I'm more dangerous than a bear? What the hell? I never did anything"

Followed by

"hey what this guy on YouTube says is true, women sexualise themselves, I mean look at instagram. This isn't my problem,."

I know this is a bit of an over simplification but thought 1 is what I thought.

I'm a bit older, tho and my second thought was - "but ive never felt unsafe alone with a woman, definitely have felt unsafe around some men."

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago
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