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Second weirdest post I've ever made. Third maybe? Idk. My best attempt to kill you with secondhand embarrassment alone. It's the lamest trauma anyone has ever had.

Hi chat, so I'm kind of weird when it comes to fiction, big fan. Oftentimes being a big reader goes hand in hand with being a writer, and yeah that's in me somewhere. I'm not super far removed from Ao3 users writing sweaty gay fic about whatever show they like, I guess. Recently though thinking about writing gives me huge panic attacks.

I'd written in bits and pieces through my childhood and stuff, but (yes, again, I swear ot's important) when I read Nevada by Imogen Binnie it really completely busted my brain. Not just in that it alerted me that there were books with queers in 'em, not just in that I swore an oath to search out every fictional trans sapphic I could find, not just in that Maria Griffiths became like half of my personality, not just in that I still can't shut the fuck up about it a decade later. On my 77th re-read of Nevada, I was like "Yeah but what if it was t4t and also a romance and also the leads were younger than sad thirty year old transbian. That would be rad!"

Through my last year of high school, I wrote like 70 pages of a novel manuscript (the formatting was apalling) for that, and even worse than that I started showing it to people. It must have been the autism, but it just never occured to me not to show off this freakishly weird too-personal work-in-progress I was writing. I started by showing it to my awful girlfriend at the time, and then to my parents, and then to people in the writing class I was in at the time. If people didn't know what .odt was, I'd print a copy off, which horrifically means there is still evidence of this Out There Somewhere.

I got nothing but positive reactions, which to be real was probably all of these people trying to be nice to the absurd little autistic trans kid. It was nice except that nobody ever discouraged me from sharing this, so when this older (like 50s-ish) lesbian showed up at a queer youth group I was at and talked about publishing novels, I obviously asked if I could send her my dumb story to look at, and the response I got was the .odt file with so much red pen that the wordcount had more than doubled.

I didn't even get past the first few pages, I get that what I was writing was bad but I was sixteen ma'am, please be a little nicer? My instinct is that a lady in her fifties could have been a little nicer to my bright-eyed, painfully unaware self. I think that's unironically where I got all of my rejection sensitivity stuff from, or at least when it crystallised. I quit writing that shit right there and then, and did not write any fiction from then on. I still wrote giant rambling analysis posts or essays or whatever on video games or movies or books I liked, trying to keep the writing muscles from weakening, but I think the idea that that could eger happen again, and that some random fuck would just completely viciously shred anything I write, before it's even done, kind of messed me up.

By the time I got the guff up to want to write again, I couldn't really do it. I'd sometimes get struck by the lightning bolt of "WRITE SOMETHING" and scratch out some notes, a plot plan, or maybe a page or two of actual story, but nothing ever got far. Always felt stilted and awkward somehow - the shit I wrote in highschool was bad, but I really envy that little bitch for her total lack of self-consciousness. I feel like I'm pre-emptively policing myself all the time or judging and critiquing my own writing as I'm writing it. It stops me all the time, in the last eight years I have successfully completed one short story, six pages and I did not like how it turned out. I'm worse than the "haha I have ten unfinished stories on my hard drive" person; I have like 20 different concepts for stories and maybe five .odt files with less than two pages completed.

It just gets worse and worse it seems, like I have tried showing people my writings since then but the rejection sensitivity is so fucking jacked that I just can't. At this point even when I do get a good idea, and my brain starts the process of boiling over with ideas and dialogue and stuff, my body goes into fight-or-flight mode and my breathing gets unsteady, my chest gets sore. Shit is exhausting and it's why I'm awake now. (3am!)

So, uh, do you have experience with getting over internal cringe response and rejection sensitivity with regard to writing, I guess? It would be cool if I could just idly type out big long stories about women kissing, that's what I'd want. Idk any advice is welcome I guess, not sure what else the point of this is.

If this gets no replies soviet-bottom I will delete the fuck out of this post soviet-bottom

tbh if it does I might still, this hurt to type and its weird lol

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I struggle with writing a lot too. In fact, speaking as well. There's a lot of things, even insignificant stuff like comments that I will draft and halfway through I drop them or I'll have a whole comment written out and as I'm proofing it for clarity of reading and for errors I'll just be like "Nope" and I delete it and not respond.

There's a few elements that I think can be teased out from your post:

  • Autistic masking

  • Understanding your purpose for writing

  • Criticism, internalised criticism, self-consciousness, and how people are remembered

  • Maybe radical acceptance sorta stuff

I'm just going to do a scattershot reply so don't expect this to be particularly coherent.

With regards to understanding your purpose for writing, I think this is worth reflecting upon; are you writing for self-expression, for enjoyment, for recognition and praise, or maybe other things.

If you are writing for self-expression it's not necessarily going to be enjoyable. Think like people writing down their thoughts after a difficult breakup - it might be useful and cathartic but it's not necessarily going to be an enjoyable process. Gratifying, perhaps, but it's hard to imagine tear-streamed writing about heartbreak and being like "This Is fun, I should do this more often!"

If you enjoy playing with words and finding ways to describe things then obviously it's a leisure activity of some sort to you.

If it's about getting a publishing career or to edify others or for recognition then your purpose is obviously going to be very different.

Worth noting that these things and others can overlap too.

But if you're writing for your own pleasure or self-expression then it doesn't really matter whether other people get anything from it, y'know? It can be hard to internalise this idea without pondering it and maybe hashing it out with the self-critical part of you or the part that feels that deep shame.

I have known artists and they tend to be pretty insular about their craft. If you get it, cool. If you like it, cool. If you don't understand it or it doesn't vibe with you, whatever. There's a significant degree of generosity on behalf of a person who decides to share things with you, even if it's just some rambling armchair psychologizing comment on Hexbear, and it's important to keep that in mind - they are inviting you in as a guest, to some degree, and if someone is going to demand that you rearrange your furniture then you don't really need to take that on board or to invite them back in as a guest in future. That's probably a bit abstract, I know, but when you are sufficiently satisfied with what you do then you don't really need the validation of others and so if someone doesn't like what you do then you aren't going to be inclined to chase their approval and if they think it things could be better then it's easier to take an attitude of "Okay - if that's your preference then you can make something to your tastes yourself or you can look elsewhere". Not in a bitter, vindictive sort of way but just an amicable sort of recognition that this isn't for them and that's their responsibility that you don't have to take on.

One piece of wisdom that I came across a long time ago is this: you will know that you have a sense of fashion when someone else doesn't like your style.

I think this can be applied pretty broadly - you know you have a personality when someone clashes with it, you know you have made good art when someone dislikes it etc.

It's not a hard rule nor am I saying that people should be as offensive and confrontational as possible but I guess it's worth reflecting upon - few things are universally loved, especially when it comes to art, and if you are writing something that is completely inoffensive and that nobody will take a dislike to then you're probably a technical writer and you've probably authored something with all the flair of an instruction manual.

So maybe just do some writing exclusively for yourself. Or maybe write for the sake of writing and make a clear committment that you aren't open for criticism on it, it just is how it is and that's the end of the discussion.

It's also worth keeping in mind that even highly regarded artists are remembered for their best works and the stuff that is middling often gets ignored or overlooked. And their bad stuff that gets produced usually doesn't get much attention, especially outside of the period that it is released. And I can guarantee you that there's a mountain of material that ends up on the metaphorical cutting room floor too.

Often a lot of it is about honing your craft and producing a lot. Some stuff you produce is naturally going to be better than other stuff and that's fine. It's very rare that an artist will just produce one thing or one set of things like an album or whatever and that's it, especially if you take into consideration their pile of drafts and their discard pile.

So maybe it's about embracing the fact that some of the stuff is necessarily going on be mediocre or worse. There are plenty of examples of novels that are highly regarded as stories which have varying degrees of bad writing - whether throughout the book itself or whether it's some really clunky sex scene or there's a character that's written in a really goofy/awkward/annoying way or something else.

It's exceedingly rare that every sentence is poetry and that each sentence builds upon the last to create a finished product that is the pinnacle of flawless writing.

Then there's the stuff about autistic masking and how it's etched into your brain via social trauma.

This is a big discussion but if you have people who accept you for who you are, and more importantly if you are accepting and nurturing of yourself, then it might be helpful to reflect on this and to recognise that you aren't going to experience the same rejection for your writing as it happened in that time in your past. You aren't going to lose anything by writing, there's not a whole lot at stake especially if you aren't choosing to stake a lot of your identity or self-worth on something that you have written.

You are allowed to afford yourself the grace to write things that are imperfect or flawed or, heck, even just straight-up bad.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago

Ah, man who says he's not good at writing or speaking and then writes excellent paragraphs! =) Surely you must mean the verbal component.

My reason for writing is extremely simple: I am lesbians, I enjoy my fiction having lesbians, sometimes I want to write very specific things with cool queers involved! I never thought about it as writing for self-expression but you're right and that makes sense, at least explains why I'm cringing all the time. I dunno why exactly I have the desire to show people my writings all the time, maybe because I Did A Thing, maybe something is pushing me to seek validation for my goofy thoughts that I can barely manage to get out? I see what you mean about furniture rearrangement, I do need to get it through my head that when I am writing, it's first and foremost for ME. I wish kid me hadn't started showing her writing to everybody.

I'm glad to know I have a personality then since I get into MANY clashes about it omori-miserable but that makes sense, whenever I see a creative-person bowing to criticism a lot online, my instinct is that they should stop reading their reviews, because as much as there may be valid, constructive criticism in there, some people are in fact just going to hate your shit.

I have tried producing a lot, like nose-to-the-grindstone, Stephen King says "write everyday" shit, but the internalised cringe response wears me down every time and I stop. Very sad, my output volume is very low and if I ever had a style I probably lost it =)

Oh, you noticed the tism did you? I am always doing my best not to mask because that shit sucks, and I think I do okay on here, I do very little editorialising of myself even though that can be a struggle too. I have my wife who accepts who I am fully, but even then I'm always feeling like I annoy her even though I know I do not. Actually one of the healthiest things for me in a long time has been yelling on the bear website, because to date (five months) nobody on here has even once been mean or rude to me, it's a stellar place. I am genuinely a little choked up thinking about the grace I've been given to just post infodumps everywhere, quick shoutout to everyone who's ever posted about Unjust Depths with me ❤

You are right that the autism plays the biggest part, and it's hard not to look at a writing I did and then instantly think about how someone would judge it, that's my single biggest issue. I can't even write for myself without doing that. I know I've also tried showing people my writings to try to gain a confidence boost, but since many people have a habit of talking around me or ignoring me, that has not gone well madeline-sadeline

I would not write bad, how dare! ^/s^ It would be kind of shameful, after reading so many books and doing so much analytical writing over a decade, if I wrote really bad. Surely I can write a good?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I have a similar thing where I lost my love for/ability to write creatively. For me the origin was a bit different - I had some strange experiences with multiple English teachers who like, identified me as a "gifted" kid and in need of extra attention, and then used me as a little ego-booster. They put additional pressure on me to perform that the other kids didn't get, assigned me extra/different assignments from the rest of the class, and then consistently singled me out as a "good example" in a way that made all my classmates despise me. I just wanted to be invisible, but if I didn't go along with what they wanted, or continue to produce the kind of work they had come to expect from me, they got horribly disappointed and took it as a personal insult to their teaching ability and thus to their very identity. I was just a kid, so I internalized that my inability to meet these distorted expectations was literally harming the adults in my life.

It was strange and bad and scary. I was already being abused at home and the extra bullying did not help. In the end it made me so anxious about writing anything and having it be seen by others. I used to have panic attacks about writing ordinary essays. I have gone many years without writing anything for fun, when it was my childhood dream to be an author.

But this isn't the kind of thing that most people think of as capital-T trauma, so I put off addressing my feelings about it for a long time. I'm still working through it today - I haven't fully reclaimed my creativity yet. But I have made very meaningful progress and it's given me a lot of hope. The key for me was addressing it in the way I addressed my other sources of childhood trauma. For me, that's been trauma therapy but also breathwork, somatic techniques, and the use of entheogens in community.

Aside from trauma healing, I've also tried some clever ways to be creative while circumventing my fear of writing. One of these is solo TTRPGs. They are a great way to experience a story of your own making, building up characters and a complex world, without any expectation to write it out and show it to others.

The other strategy I've been using is to write in another language. I use toki pona, mostly because I have pretty severe cognitive impairment from long covid, and so it was the only language I felt I could reasonably achieve fluency in. Writing in not-English is like using a room in my head where all the other trauma never happened.

Possibly these specific workarounds won't work for you, but maybe they will give you some ideas of other creative ways you can circumvent the anxiety response you currently have. I think of my creativity as something like an injured kitten, who needs to be gently coaxed to trust me again. Anything I can do to get her playing is a step in the right direction.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago

Hi sappho, wow that's absolutely brutal, y'know fuck those teachers for that, weird behaviour. It strikes me also that I had been earmarked as both a gifted kid and a "remedial" student at various points, I wonder how that plays into all of this, if it does. I had a couple of really nice English teachers though, that was cool.

I like your strats for healing from trauma and getting around writing anxiety, never tried any of what you've listed myself. I guess it's clear I have some trauma related work to do...

Never once in my life have I heard of toki pona, I didn't know such a thing even existed. Might be cool... Greatly appreciate the advice, thank you.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

My mom was an editor for a little while and while the feedback was typically useful and my writing was good I found myself not wanting to write because it was never finished. I liked math better, because each equation has an end, whereas writing can be subject to draft after draft. Even today basically all of my writing is first drafts only.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago

I liked math better,

scared

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I have thoughts on this but it's quite late and I really need to get to bed as I have a lunch date tomorrow

Writing anxiety is normal to have, no artist is ever ever ever fully satisfied with their art unless they're a self-important douche. Will most more in-depth stuff later

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago

Looking foward to it, pls tag me when you do!

And yes, but most writers can at least write stuff, lmao. Big stumbling block...

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I feel this way about communication in general, only thing I do go for it and cringe later. If you're really wanting to publish you could self publish some of your works you're not too overly attached to on Amazon or similar online places and pirate-jammin a copy of adobe illustrator or something to make it look neat.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

If it counts for anything, pretty much every time I post on bear website it's against my "better judgement" (i.e. self-cringe reaction and such) so that's going well, because I can count on one hand the amount of genuine negative reactions I have ever received. Mostly I psych myself out by thinking "if nobody replied they must all think its cringe" kitty-cri-screm

I don't have any writing yet, I kind of doubt I could make any sort of profit off of what I want to write generally though. I'd be more compelled to post stuff as an Original Work on Ao3 or something, where the gay lives. I would link it on hexbear too ofc.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Writing doesn't generate wild amounts of money anyhow, wouldn't worry about it.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago

Yeah cool stuff never pays under capitalism!

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I love reading slop, I have like over a hundred tabs of royalroad open on my phone.

Don't have any advice for realizing the story concept part, all of mine are even more nonexistent than yours.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

What if u mythologised the slop though, and built a yarn conpsiracy corkboard about it? What if you spent every waking minute thinking about the slop? What if the slop read you instead & it controlled you? ayeaye

I might need to get into this royalroad thing sometime.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I recommend it highly, I love my serialized web novel slop. The downside is that it's pretty anti-horny. Stories that would go on royalroad but for the horniness tend to go on scribblehub instead. (by the way if you want some incredibly horny trans lesbian slop which is becoming more and more communist propaganda by the chapter, check out A New Kind of Grind )

Also, reading that kind of thing might set a more realistic level of expectation for you as a starting writer, some of those fuckers on there barely have apostrophes and spelling down.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

You think that's a NEGATIVE TO ME?! volcel-judge I should put "asexual" in my bio ig.

Unjust Depths is about as horny as I like my stuff, I guess. Any more and I start to get weird, plus I already get weird at Unjust Depths. I might read that though, not an awful sales pitch?

Except Oh shit, as soon as I clicked that link "isekai" I fuckin VOMITED. I know this, I have in fact been recommended some scribblehub stories, mostly ones by QuietValerie and uh, my conclusion was that any website where you can unironically flag your story as isekai, girls love and gender bender at the same time is a massive red flag. I don't consider myself to be judgy about people's writing skills, so while there is poor writing on scribblehub it was the combination of anime brain, bad writing and terminal horniness which killed me stone dead. If I wanna be uncomfortable I'll just go on Read-Only Mind and pull up some HDG again, you feel? Woof.

The truth is that in terms of like basic grammar, sentence structure, paragraphs and whatever, I'm at least as good as the average writer on like ao3 or scribblehub, I edit. Does not stop the potential for writing to be cringe though!!!

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I am immune to cringe. It cannot effect me. Shit like "Isekai" tags rolls off me as water from a duck's back.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I wouldn't call it "cringe" per se because I think that's kind of rude, but "isekai" means "SAO or Konosuba" in my brain and I do not want that near my gay u feel :)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Honestly I think that's so terribly narrow-minded of you that I'm going to recommend several other royalroad isekai I like.

His Soul is Marching On to Another World is a story wherein John Brown gets isekai'd directly from the gallows to a stereotypical isekai world and proceeds to do John Brown things there. In the very first chapter he kills a generic isekai protagonist and frees his catgirl slave.

Otherworldly Anarchist is about a woman who is an anarchist and biology PhD student getting isekai'd to a magical medieval world and bringing it feminism and anarchy one dead cop or noble at a time.

Cinnamon Bun is a cute and wholesome story of a girl who gets isekai'd to a very light fantasy setting and just wanders around making friends with everyone up to and including dragons.

Ends of Magic is tough to recommend simply because the first two volumes have been published as books and removed from royalroad but it's very good. The hero is forcibly isekai'd by a mage from a slaver empire in hopes of exploiting his modern knowledge. He rejects this and makes it his mission in life to tear down the slave empire. He is bisexual but there is no romance or sex element to the plot.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I don't even know how to respond to that, but I did have a sensible chuckle. Middle two might be worth reading.

I do not really understand why scribblehub is weebcoded all over, but shrug-outta-hecks

Also "but there is no romance or sex element to the plot" for anything wirh a male protag there had better not be, lol

E: as a note I have a policy of not reading anything that doesn't feature a sapphic protagonist, because I'm just funny like that.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

@[email protected] I can recommend something which has allowed me to produce a surprising variety of small stories, although honestly I end up culling them down to a single thought in almost every case:
Just write a short chapter. Almost every book has chapters. Don't make it an intensely personal topic. Force yourself to take on multitudinous perspectives through this process by not binding any particular chapter to the same project unless it really feels right (does that make any sense? maybe I should go to bed).

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Oh shit I never considered that other instances could see this, that's horrifying. Hello procial.tchncs!

I kind of like the intensely personal topics though, I dunno why else I'd write if not to have transbians kissing, surely my life's greatest pursuit. I do like the small-chapter approach though, it seems productive.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

@[email protected] No don't be horrified I can barely get Hexbear to display and I'm trying quite hard. You're not saying anything embarrassing.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago

@[email protected] Always do the donnie darko meme "i discovered a new horrible crime i committed 😈" "real crimes or thought mistakes? 👵?" "thought mistakes 😩😩"