informal PSA: we are sorry the UI got worse and more annoying to use, please blame Lemmy for all the shit that is now that little bit more irritating : chat

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This post makes the Beehaw admins look really bad, to be honest. Personally, I had not even really noticed any big differences, so if you hadn't told me I wouldn't even know about them. The small differences that I did notice seem like improvements to me.

However, this post seems to be needlessly criticizing the Lemmy devs without any actual constructive feedback. The post is nothing more than "We would like to make you aware that the experience got worse and you SHOULD BLAME the devs!!" to me. It doesn't help anybody. It just makes you look very unprofessional, entitled and will damage your relation with the Lemmy devs. If you can't code and improve Lemmy yourself that way, that's totally fine. Don't like an update? That fine too! But if you want to be actually helpful and have your voice heard, go to Lemmy's Github page and give the devs constructive feedback. Report bugs when you run into issues or do a feature request for changes you'd like to see. Enter discussions about other bugs/requests. There are so many things you could do without the need to be a programmer.

But don't post a vague complaint to your community, pointing fingers and hoping to get more people angry to pressure the devs into what you want. I came to Beehaw because it promised to be a safespace. A positive place. The fact that an admin posted this complaint here doesn't reflect that idea at all to me.

I really hope you guys can see why this behaviour is not desirable and a one-time thing. Otherwise, I can't keep supporting Beehaw and would have to leave the instance for another, which would be a shame.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

What makes this further interesting is that the lemmy back end and front end are actually two different stacks so theoretically anyone can make a front end to their liking.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Assuming good faith needs to go all directions and we're asking for a little bit of empathy to vent some frustrations when we see them. Not everything we say is with an admin hat on. This is explicitly in the chat community, and it's specifically titled 'informal'. We don't desire to be stuffy and impersonal all the time because then you have no insight into who we are as people or the issues we go through.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Lots of toxic behavior in social media is people venting frustrations. So in that sense what you are doing is not that weird.

Now think about the community you say you want to foster here and the values you say you want uphold.

This should not be Reddit or Twitter, right? We expect better from people, right?

Please, think about the optics, reflect and do not double down, unless you are 100% sure this is the kind of criticism you are ok with having in Beehaw, because is what you are going to get.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Constructively criticize -- remember that the decisions they made seemed like the right ones to them. Remember the human. And be specific: "Make better decisions" isn't useful, but "now that Lemmy does this, unfortunately that happens for me as a result" might just result in the changes you need.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Whoa buddy what's all this empathy stuff doing here

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I'd ask for you to remember that we're humans too - we just put a bunch of resources into a very messy upgrade. We've been asking for plenty of other fixes, busy running a website, collecting moderators, setting up services for our users and to manage the site, ensuring that emails send because the app doesn't notify approval/denials, and in general scaling up for the unprecedented growth. We also had to defederate and caught a lot of flak for it, have had to deal with a lot of unsavory users, and in general have had very few people sympathize with our position.

I think it's absolutely fair to be upset about changes and to vent that frustration. I also think it's fair to point out it's not constructive, but please see it from our perspective- it's another headache we don't know how to deal with right now, and it's incredibly frustrating. It's upsetting to see parts of the platform regressing, many of our concerns glossed over, and to face pushback from many users not even from our instance.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

not a good sign to find myself on a platform where fellow admins are criticizing the developers like this. in a healthy ecosystem we'd leverage more formal channels to help direct the development. if you haven't already, it might be good to document the regressions and start/join the discussions on github or matrix (link for it can be found on the Lemmy github page). i've used these in the past for this project and the devs were reasonably quick to reply and apply fixes.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

not a good sign to find myself on a platform where fellow admins are criticizing the developers like this. in a healthy ecosystem we’d leverage more formal channels to help direct the development.

if lemmy can't handle us personally saying we dislike a significant number of the software-wide UI choices made by 0.18+, an upgrade that mind you we can't go back on, i feel like that speaks to a much less healthy ecosystem than this post. in any case, they're busy, we're busy, and most of the fixes we want aren't in the pipeline at all because they're administrative in nature, not cosmetic.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh no, criticism! How will Lemmy ever survive!

Wait until you find out that at least one of the main authors is a literal tankie

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That seems like a bit of a needlessly hostile response to someone who was offering constructive criticism and encouraging others to do the same.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Didn't mean to come off as hostile. I just don't think it's quite that bad of a sign to see admins criticizing Lemmy on Lemmy instead of only "on official channels", like admins aren't allowed to criticize the platform where us plebs can see it

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I actually think it's more about the nature of the criticism here rather than it's existence. Do you think that the post provides constructive criticism that encourages active discussion?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean you're not wrong about it not being all that constructive, but I really don't see much harm in admins venting frustration. They're regular humans too and it's understandable they get frustrated with things, it's probably a bit of a turbulent time for them.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They’re regular humans too and it’s understandable they get frustrated with things, it’s probably a bit of a turbulent time for them.

I completely agree with that, but I am concerned that A) if it's happening in a way that could filter back as "the admins of Beehaw" that may be poor for external relationships and B) in isolation it implies that those admins may not be taking a constructive approach to these issues, which would be obviously be bad.

I'm not sure exactly what the best answer is but I do think it would be good for the admins to think about it a bit and consider the best options for inevitable future circumstances like this.

I suspect that if this post had been one with a more constructive angle but that expressed those personal frustrations in addition to that then it would probably be ok. Unfortunately, when you take on responsibility as administrator for a community you do need to consider how what you do might affect that community and that does lead to feeling more restricted than if you were just a regular user.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I do get where you're coming from even though I don't agree. As you said, we're looking at this post in isolation; I don't think a random rant about a huge platform update that hasn't gone terrifically well is indicative of Beehaw admins not being constructive about it in general. It's still a < v1.0 service after all and there are some huge problems with eg. federation and whatnot that are causing admins and users of all instances nontrivial amounts of hassle.

It's a bumpy ride and there's going to be annoyances aplenty, but I do trust that in the end everyone is handling things OK even though annoyances sometimes flare up

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I can agree that the comment you replied to was kinda hostile but this is FOSS, something that strives on dissent and criticism from the people that use it. Saying we shouldn't talk about Lemmy's shortcomings is like saying that Engineers are great Designers which isn't exactly true.

Some things may be unnecessary, especially political beliefs that don't really come with any official affiliation, but things like UI are very important for accessibility and if the developers are not going to focus accessibility, then users may want to look elsewhere.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I can agree that the comment you replied to was kinda hostile but this is FOSS, something that strives on dissent and criticism from the people that use it. Saying we shouldn’t talk about Lemmy’s shortcomings is like saying that Engineers are great Designers which isn’t exactly true.

Yeah but they weren't saying don't talk about the shortcomings. They were saying, go do that in the most high impact most likely to cause change way possible.> I can agree that the comment you replied to was kinda hostile but this is FOSS, something that strives on dissent and criticism from the people that use it. Saying we shouldn’t talk about Lemmy’s shortcomings is like saying that Engineers are great Designers which isn’t exactly true.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure but why not share their opinions here as well? They can and probably have already shared their views with the developers in a more direct way but I, for one, wouldn't be "in the know" without posts like these.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I dunno, ask Colin about the opinion he expressed not me. I was just disagreeing that his comment said anything to the effect that "we shouldn't talk about Lemmy's shortcomings."

I'm not even convinced they are saying that the devs shouldn't share their opinions here as well.

The exact phrasing was:

"not a good sign to find myself on a platform where fellow admins are criticizing the developers like this."

Not:

"not a good sign to find myself on a platform where fellow admins are criticizing the developers."

Those aren't the same statement.

Personally I think that it probably is good for the admins to discuss their concerns about software development of Lemmy both directly where that will have an impact on the development and here within the community.

But I think in both cases, because they are representatives of Beehaw, that should be in the form of productive criticism that is explicit about what they think should be different and why.

This post is more about emotional venting about their frustration without even spelling out explicitly what they are frustrated about. Which is productive in the sense that it's important to process one's emotions and discussing them with your peers is a way people like to do that. However, I actually don't think it is appropriate for the administrators of an instance to do so in that context because it potentially sets a negative tone for the discussion between the admins on behalf of the Beehaw community and the people actually working on the software about what Beehaw's needs are from that software. This could actually undermine having Beehaw's voice heard in an effective way to help get these issues resolved.

I think that this post acknowledges that there should be a line drawn between official communication by the Beehaw administration and their personal venting as a user (ie by titleing it "informal PSA") I think it might be better to just not make it at all, process those feelings off-site, then come back with a more formal, detailed and specific, and more neutrally worded statement instead. It's not the end of the world or some unforgivable sin to have made a venty post about how they feel but I do think it would be better to handle things slightly differently in future and it is good for people to share that feedback.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Okay, I think we're on the same page now, thanks for going a little bit more in-depth. I had a similar issue the other day where it would probably have been nice if the moderator was able to remove the moderator tag.

Like if I didn't know that the tag could not be removed in order to allow moderators to use the site like normal users then I would have seen this post as a little off-putting simply because of the administrative tagging.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

What about something like this?

“¡Hi! You might have experience some changes in the interface of Beehaw. The admin team is not really happy with them but remember, we do not build the software that powers this community, so if you are experiencing problems make sure to report them to the Lemmy developers. We are already doing it.

In the meantime we are making some plans to mitigate this problems with theming on our end.

If accessibility is being a problem, take a look into these alternative clients.

In the end Lemmy is still in an early stage and it’s the responsibility of every instance to help in any way we can to help make it as good as it can be”

No need to throw anyone under the bus. To be honest it’s not the kind of criticism I expected from this community. Maybe you would be chillier if you had a downvote button to get all… that… out of your system.

You sound really adversarial against the people that build our tools. Even if you are frustrated, this leaves a really bad taste.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

This post lacks constructive feedback. Just complaining - without proposing any solutions or fully describing the issues - is a smooth-brain move.

Personally I like the UI changes. I no longer have to zoom the page out to get a decent font-size. Comment-collapse buttons are now on the left so it's easier to collapse comments as you move down the page.

I would like to see a bit more indentation for comment replies. Currently scrolling down threads where many comments have single replies, the replies have more highlighting that the comments themselves, and the indent margin isn't quite wide enough to obviously set replies apart from top-level comments.

However, all of my comments could be easily fixed with CSS in either a theme or with a user-applied style.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

While I understand that most of Beehaw's administrators are not programmers, I think it would be helpful if you reached out to the developers and ask that the Lemmy software offer greater levels of configuration when it comes to the UI. Making a vague post about "issues" on your own forum ensure that whatever issues you have will never be heard by the developers.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

While I understand that most of Beehaw’s administrators are not programmers, I think it would be helpful if you reached out to the developers and ask that the Lemmy software offer greater levels of configuration when it comes to the UI

with how many feature requests they (and we) already have on their plate i'm gonna be honest i cannot imagine this is significantly more actionable to them than the OP is. it's not like they can just snap their fingers and give us that ability

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Idk everything looks better to me? Font size looks about the same, I can see all the buttons. Scrolling is a lot smoother. This is on Safari iOS

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

I suspect it is mostly an issue on desktop, as I also can't say I noticed any difference on mobile.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

All of the buttons that had any value at all are completely missing -- upvote, reply, report... I don't even have the button to add a screenshot of what I do see. (Brave, MacOS)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's a cache invalidation problem. You need to force-reload the page (Shift+click reload in Firefox; not sure what it is in Brave).

@[email protected], I was getting 304 Not Modified for the icon images. The browser is caching them incorrectly.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I noticed that too, but a hard Refresh or Reload (override cache) (Ctrl+Shift R) or (Ctrl-F5) made them come back.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Honestly I dont mind it that much,

It's smaller but I ctrl+ on my keyboard and blow it back up. Some of the layout of the posts is different on the main page but I wasnt the biggest fan of the original either so thats more a wash. The comment box has a different formatting button layout which is fine.

Being on the all tab and not having a random subinstance federate with or update all at once is excellent. It was so annoying to try to click something, and wind up being too slow as what I wanted to click got bumped down. Usually by porn. Nothing against the porn instances, mind you, but I was trying to click some silly meme not get an eye full.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What's worse about it?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I like the smaller fonts, fits more content onto each page. I don't know what all the angst is about, I can't be the only one who is largely enjoying the design changes. 🤷

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I have to say (and it's probably just me being oblivious) but I haven't noticed anything different. What's changed?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Well on the plus side, the Lemmy frontend is designed to be replaceable; there's even an old forum style frontend for Lemmy as an example. If Lemmy-UI shits the bed too hard, then we can always make a better one.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

On mobile it seems pretty decent? At least nothing that had bugged me so far.

Don't sweat it guys, I think most of us understand that Lemmy will have a somewhat bumpy road ahead and are fine with it! It's kind of fun to be here during it's growth :)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I thought I was just seeing things, but the font sizes were actually reduced. The weirdest thing is that now the body size is smaller than 1rem.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

On desktop I just ctrl+ my way back to comfortable size, I imagine on mobile browser this is going to be annoying, but the app flood is coming to save us on phone

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

On desktop I just ctrl+ my way back to comfortable size,

i... should not have to do this in the first place. it should just be at a legible size as a baseline, lol

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

See also the PR. Apparently “people” want the fonts smaller. Can't imagine who or why.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

oddly enough I prefer the new ui over to the old ui. Feels snappier

(Probably because I'm on mobile though?)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

ignoring all the reasons i hate these changes from a design standpoint, from an accessibility standpoint, this is objectively a worse build in almost every way

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Finally, my laziness paid off (didn’t update from 17.3 yet) !

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Much as I dont like the changes, it does seem overall faster and more stable - at least on my browser (safari)

So at least there's that?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

It does seem overall faster and more stable - at least on my browser (safari)

for all the headache it better be, this was half of why we upgraded

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

oh also these are actually 0.18+ UI choices (i have edited my post to note this) so it's not like we can revert them lol. we're stuck going forward until they're fixed or we sand them off. sucks!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Given these appear to be just font size changes in the CSS, could we not just change them back to the old values for Beehaw itself?

https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/commit/aee7e4d45b24667dc34a29f72ef353e78ed1009c

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

if they're changes in CSS yes we can probably change them trivially but that'll also probably just come as a part of theming then, we have some stuff in the works there 😉

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