this post was submitted on 24 Feb 2024
158 points (85.9% liked)

Men's Liberation

1847 readers
1 users here now

This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.


Rules

Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people


Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.



Be productive


Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.

Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:

  • Build upon the OP
  • Discuss concepts rather than semantics
  • No low effort comments
  • No personal attacks


Assume good faith


Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.



No bigotry


Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.



No brigading


Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.



Recommended Reading

Related Communities

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]


founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 56 points 8 months ago (3 children)

I enjoyed this article

I will say it’s very easy to accept that victim attitude. I did. I don’t any longer, I’d consider myself a humanist with the belief we need to make society better for everyone.

I’m going to whine for a bit, I’m in my mid 30s now, and when I was in high school social media was new and Facebook was pretty much at its peak. I don’t know what growing up is like for kids these days, but I do know my 11 year old nephew is like the kids in the article and he knows all about “red-pill” alpha/beta/sigma shit (but not how incorrect it is).

As a teenager it felt like being a white straight male meant I was being pushed backwards to make room for helping push women forward (I saw felt like because sometimes how somethings feels outweighs reality).

As an example, to pay for university I went through lists of scholarships and almost all of them were focused on minorities and women, and so I was ineligible. I worked 30+ hours a week after school school and I worked really hard to get up to an A average so that I could get some scholarships to help afford tuition (and I still ended up with debt). It was a really tough time and I was filled with fear about the future. At the time I felt that that I had to put in more effort to get less than my peers did because I was a straight white boy. My girlfriend at the time ended up getting so many scholarships and bursaries that she could afford her tuition, and her residence, and fun money leftover, and she never had to take on any debt to pay for her even more expensive university. I only got one scholarship (not for lack of trying) based on my grade cutoff, and I ended up taking on debt which took years to pay off. It felt very unfair by comparison, and I know her experience did not reflect the average, but that’s what I saw as my comparison.

I also was a frequent 4chan user at the time, I joined for the memes, but there was a lot of commentary about how the education system had been changed to favour girls and that when it was more adversarial boys performed better. By then the statistics had already swung so that more girls were getting accepted into university, and they were more likely to graduate. I still have no idea how true the things I read on 4chan were vs reality, they definitely excluded the narrative of sexism against women in the old days, but they felt real, they matched with real statistics, and it was a cohesive narrative. I got sucked in, and I was bitter, and I saw all the ways in which I was the victim.

Obviously I never experienced any of the downsides of being a minority or being a woman. I never got the perspective of why things were harder for them and why they deserved help. I only saw there was help for them while I was struggling to keep afloat. I only saw the still present expectations on men to be providers, all the bad sides of patriarchy without knowing what patriarchy was (except meaning male and bad). Also at the time, there was stuff like anti-rape pledges that schools were making boys take, and it sorta felt like being treated like a criminal for crimes you knew you would never commit.

Anyways, I’ve meandered a lot. The discourse has evolved but I still don’t think men’s issues get the discussion they need, and I don’t think we’ve seriously focused much effort on the question of “how do we help boys too”.

Now that alarm bells are ringing and it feels like we’re still not adequately discussing men’s issues, and sadly it feels like the only people who actually are, are those alt-right red-pill influencers (who are massively warping the truth to fit a narrative) because they’re not afraid to get labelled over it.

And just to sign off, over 15 years after high school I now see a lot of the privilege I actually had, I’m more aware of the realities minorities and women face, and I know I was a whiny teenager with blinders on to all of the benefits and luck I actually had.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I remembered being the only Asian kid in school on Long Island. It was awful. The constant fights/bullying I was in were so frequent that my parents sent me to defense training.

My teachers would put me down and one of my teachers even physically abused me. The vice principal saw it and didn't do anything either.

But I felt privileged because I wasn't the only black kid in my school. He was my best friend. He had it way worse.

My point is that it is all about perspective. My life sucked because I knew what my friend was going through.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I’m sorry you went through that.

That’s the kind of thing I didn’t think about growing up, which was in a primarily white area, and I only really made non-white friends in university.

I feel embarrassed at what I thought back then sometimes.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago

Obviously it's not your fault. You're the product of your environment. Racism is sorta built into everything in our society.

I'll give you an example that relates to your post.

I work in a small startup and manage a marketing team. Our team is growing and I'm constantly hiring people.

Our founder plans to go public, but our diversity % is awful. We have 2000 employees, 8 blacks, 14 Asians and 80% men. The vast majority of them are white men. The head of HR is a friend of mine and asked me for help.

I told her one of the many reasons was the college graduate and masters preferred line we have on all our postings. It didn't even matter that it's a junior position. That was added because they wanted "educated" people. But we inadvertently homogenized all our candidates.

As a test, we changed all marketing positions to just say high school or GED. And with that simple trick, marketing is the most diverse department in the company.

The only thing we can all do as a society is to just try our best to bring diversity to our lives. I was a "don't bother me and I won't bother you" type of person when it came to LGBTQ people until I found myself living in West Hollywood and making friends with mostly gay people.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

The scholarship thing, and lack of social support for men in general, is still a massive problem IMO. I'm all for lifting those up who need it, but many people, myself included, were too "rich" to get financial aid, too poor to afford anything other than community college (which is great, but it has challenges of its own), and too straight and white and male to quality for 95% of scholarships. I'm very aware I inherently have some level of privilege, and I'm sure there's even more I'm unaware of, but the single greatest contribution to your chance of success in life is the zip code you were born in.

I'm extremely privileged and make more than enough money for a comfortable living, but the road here was very difficult, and it's pretty damn easy to see why young boys are leaning right so hard. I'm left as fuck and id even be considered left wing in Europe, but the left in the US has alienated the fuck out of young men and provides almost 0 role models for them. The constant media messaging and sentiment of men are evil, they need to go die in wars, and #killallmen on social media being celebrated is super damaging. If I didn't end up decently successful and couldn't take a step back and get a top down view of everything I don't know if I'd end up nearly as left as I am.

It's only recently I've seen some sentiment change around this, but it's going to take a long time as all social change does. We really ought to stop telling young boys what to not be and instead SHOW THEM what they should strive to be. This is why people like Andrew Tate get such a cult following. Despite being an absolute dog shit human being, he focuses on uplifting oneself and provides an ideal person who you should strive to be. By comparison that positive male role model who young boys should strive to be is completely absent on the left and leaves many boys, myself included at the time, lost as fuck and surrounded by what they should not be instead of what they should.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago (1 children)

There is really easy solution - socially financed education and income based support.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago

But then how will we get young people to join the military for our unpopular unnecessary wars?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago

100%

It is a lot easier to see where you’ve struggled than where you are privileged.

But I would like to see more make role models. I didn’t really have many growing up.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 45 points 8 months ago (1 children)

the morning light hit my stove’s greasy backsplash in just the right way to reveal a finger-traced drawing of a dick ’n’ balls spraying a few fingertip-dots of jizz.

Us mere mortals can only dream of writing this perfect, for indeed here we have an example of prose from an artist at the pinnacle of the form.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago (4 children)

"Us" can't dream, but we can.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago

I think it's hilarious that his praise of prose contains errors, perhaps intentionally, but pointing out the irony of such errors causes people to react negatively with down votes.

It's like you're the only one who got the joke and everyone else is mad they didn't understand.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 36 points 8 months ago (2 children)

The appeal of a grievance-based identity makes it hard to convince straight white boys that they in fact have plenty going for them, and that they have no reason to feel aggrieved.

Yeah, but they do have reason to feel aggrieved. Patriarchy is fucking boys and men over too.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 8 months ago

Yeah this part stuck out to me too. It's really difficult to see all that's left on the table when we refuse to acknowledge that boys are absolutely still forced into damaging masculine roles.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago (5 children)

Grievance-based identity… Interesting that it is attributed by the author to straight white males; on the right “oppression olympics”, i.e., grievance-based identity, is attributed predominantly to the left.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

You do bring up an interesting point there. It does make me wonder how much each “side” is attributing behaviours to strawman versions of the other vs not seeing what they have themselves.

I personally strongly related to the article, I think there’s a crisis in finding meaning in masculinity these days. I think the red pill alt-right types are promoting an easy but unhealthy version of masculinity (fulfilling yourself by status symbols, or min-maxing something, or really falling into the alpha/beta/sigma nonsense).

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 35 points 8 months ago (6 children)

The statistics have shown for decades that peers are what determine political alignment. The answer is therefore simple: don't send your kids to conservative education.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 30 points 8 months ago (37 children)

I’ll add to this the lack of male only spaces throughout life. There used to be scouts, boys sports, working men’s clubs, veterans clubs etc. Almost all of it is mixed now because that was sexist. The opposite has happened in female areas with charity leagues, coding clubs, sports, gyms, etc.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 months ago

Yeah, seeing this in the article:

"It might feel dangerous to let a teenager argue that sexism works both ways"

made me hesitate a bit. Any man with a decent chunk of life experience knows that this sexism cuts both ways. Still, I sympathize with the primary message. I wouldn't want my children to fall into extremist politics either.

At the same time providing the fundamentals of critical thinking is becoming more and more challenging with how many different actors want to hijack our emotions for their own purposes and bypass rational thinking.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago

To add to this - the most important thing is the community. Yes, girls are given special organizations. But the cause of this rightward lurch is a world wide withdrawal from community. We're not spending time together and calling each other out on their shit. Rightwing nutjobs used to be known to be rightwing nutjobs and they were called out for being that way. They knew what they were and they knew the community disapproved. Now everyone is siloed at home on the internet with no social fabric to error check them and tell them that they are being pushed towards nutjobism.

load more comments (35 replies)
[–] [email protected] 25 points 8 months ago

I had conservative parents and I might have grown up the same... but I slid WAY to the left which I attribute to one very specific and pivotal event: watching the news and protests around Trump getting elected while I was sitting in a McDonald's in Thorncliffe Park. Until that day I was pretty indifferent to politics and stuff, but this had me question: what injustice in this world led to this crazy person to take power?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 8 months ago

Yes, by not introducing trauma of being micromanaged, parented too much and by allowing them personal space.

By understanding that this doesn't mean kids don't need help, they need a lot of it, but you don't come arrogantly with your mind made up about what kind of help exactly they need.

By being respectful of their borders in interests also, because when a kid is interested in anything at all, and the parent thinks it's cool to just intervene "helping" in that interest and "participating" without being invited, especially publicly, that's worse than bullying.

And also doing that thing which may seem stone age - never ever support anybody from the outside against your kid. Teachers, other kids' parents, neighbors, anybody. If your kid does something wrong, you talk. But you don't turn it into something you discuss and judge behind their back together with teachers or whoever else and then come to your kid with your opinion. That's called family values and it really is important.

In short, respect.

Militant right ideologies are attractive for people who feel themselves disrespected. Idealistic ideologies (not only right) are attractive for people who lack happiness. Repressive ideologies (again not only right) are attractive for people who feel themselves weak. Conspiracy theories are attractive for people who feel lost. Reactionary ideologies are attractive for people who feel rejected.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago

Teach empathy.

Make them the helpers.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

There is a problem that creates a hostility towards feminism as it stands now and minorities.

Look at how positive discrimination has progressed.

The goal is roughly 50/50 representation. But to get there from where we were we have positively discriminated in favour of girls and women.

Desirable entry level jobs do not end up in a 50/50 hire pattern because the starting point was skewed to begin with. Hiring over represents women.

Leadership and management often needs a correction from 100% male to 50%.

That means promotions favour women.

But it goes further back. Educational programs, university places etc. As well as other areas of life. Sport funding, healthcare interventions.

All these areas we're correcting for social injustice against women and we aren't impacting those who are already at the top of the ladder.

Instead we're disproportionately helping women up the ladder to eventually get to equality.

That's justifiable looking at society as a whole. I'm not generally against positive discrimination.

But add on to that the same mechanisms to help minorities and you do have a weight of advantages that can lead to an overcorrection or at the very least feel like one.

Then take it another step.

In the UK there was a program which targeted additional funding for disadvantaged children in education. It recognised girls and helped them, it recognised minorities and helped them.

The program was designed to be agnostic and look at demographics and attainment to determine where funding would go.

At the point at which the metrics used to determine funding pointed to white working class boys, after the pendulum had swung, the Conservatives cut funding for it.

There is privilege. There are reasons to correct for privilege and ways to do that to make a more equal society.

But the way we've chosen to get there as quickly as possible has reversed privilege in small, key areas, rather than eliminating it.

In a world where we have a generation that has spent their entire political lives pulling up the ladder. That right wing generation has found support amongst the young in promising to pull up the ladders only put back down for the select few.

The most desirable jobs and areas for social mobility have been targeted for positive discrimination. To try and create representation of the unrepresented as the first step.

There is increasing inequality overall.

There are those who cannot get onto the ladder seeing the left help people not like them. Just because they aren't women and aren't a minority themselves.

The left has fundamentally failed to target root causes of inequality and lack of social mobility.

Who are you going to vote for. The side taking away your privilege while doing nothing for you?

Or the side who promises not to take that privilege from you?

If the left wants young men's votes it needs to tackle inequality and social mobility directly. Otherwise it may be the correct, albeit distasteful, conclusion, that a culture war benefits young white men. After that it's only a matter of cognitive dissonance to justify the harm to society as a whole for personal benefit and young men vote right wing.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago (1 children)

he left has fundamentally failed to target root causes of inequality and lack of social mobility.

If the left wants young men’s votes it needs to tackle inequality and social mobility directly.

What are you talking about? The left has found and implemented solutions to those problems (not perfect but better than nothing) in places where the left had power - northern Europe for example.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago (7 children)

I'm speaking from an anglocene perspective I admit.

The "left" in the UK and US has had power. But they didn't contradict right wing economic policy from the 80s when they had the chance.

We'll see what they do next time they get a chance but looking at the UK we haven't had a left wing government that would help since the 70s and it's hard to start a conversation about who to vote for by talking about things that happened before someone was born.

The track record of Labour in the UK and the Democrats in the US is not good enough in the living memory of the voters they want to turn out for them.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

But they didn’t contradict right wing economic policy from the 80s when they had the chance.

So how are they left if they don't actually enable core leftist ideas?

Democrats in the USA would be a rather conservative (when it comes to economics ) party in most social market economy countries. Which is my point - it's not that the left does not have solutions for social inequality problems. It's just that there are no politicians in power (in the USA and UK) who are interested in bringing those to life.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (13 children)

They're "left" because we live in a 2 party system and they did spend money on healthcare and education.

I get what you're saying. Essentially I'm saying the same thing,the left aren't left enough to ensure their policies help everyone instead of a select few.

But they are the left under FPTP voting where most votes get disenfranchised.

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (9 children)

When has the left ever had power in the US? Labour in the UK had a bit post war, but they've since stopped being left.

You cant just call neolibs the left and complain that the left didnt do anything.

load more comments (9 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago (2 children)

If you're good enough with philosophically questioning and deconstruction of ideas in a non-militant manner, you could deradicalise someone. I could not find the news, but there is a father who deradicalised his son by engaging his son's thoughts. The natural instinct is to quickly react and be angry but father kept questioning where his son got the ideas and explained why they're wrong. The son's view did not change over night but it worked.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›