this post was submitted on 24 Feb 2024
199 points (87.8% liked)

World News

38979 readers
2960 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Germany's leading Social Democratic Party (SPD) and the opposition Christian Democratic Party (CDU) have ordered high schools in Berlin's borough of Neukolln to distribute brochures titled The Myth of Israel #1948.

The brochure states there are five "myths" around the creation of the state of Israel, which are subsequently refuted in short essays by various authors.

In the first section, debunking myth #1, that Jews and Arabs lived together in peace before Israel was founded, Israel's pre-state militia, the Haganah, responsible for the destruction of 531 Palestinian villages and the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians between December 1947 and the summer of 1948, is promoted as a merely "defensive" Jewish resistance movement.

"Myth #5: Israel is to blame for the Nakba", includes a text by researcher Shany Mor titled "the UN is distorting the meaning of the Nakba: its view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is extremely one-sided".

In the text, Mor states that "displacement during war - then and now - was nothing unusual".

He also labels the UN's attention to the Palestinian cause "obsessive" and the Arab defeat of 1948 a myth.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 61 points 8 months ago

The brochure is created by the Jewish association Masiyot, which was founded in 2022 and enjoys the support of the Berliner Landeszentrale fur politische Bildung, the Federal Center for Political Education.

Some 1984 shit...

"In the 1948 War of Independence, 6000 Jews were killed, fully 1% of the total population (was it a genocide?)", a Twitter post by Mor reads

It's just nutty tweets by this clueless "expert" https://twitter.com/ShMMor

https://www.masiyot.de/mythos-israel1948

Nine mentioned of arab terrorism, six mentions of pogroms run by Arabs..

[–] [email protected] 57 points 8 months ago (4 children)

Truly, it's as if Germany has learnt absolutely nothing from it's past.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Germany: You see? We're not antisemitic, we're just pro-genocide! That's better, right?

[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

They never really hated the Jews, just had to pick SOMEONE to genocide after all.

Now its the moose-lambs turn

[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 months ago

They genocided lots of other groups including queers and catholics, so you are basically correct.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The general idea is that these parties do not want to be seen as anti-semetic, especially considering the German past. Which leads to no criticism towards Israel whatsoever. It's a shame actually, because this opens the door to the AfD party, who dont have qualms about these kind of things.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago

That's why it's doubly shameful of Germany to have this stance, and also a great pity. Germany calling out Israel for it's genocide would be as strong a rebuke as South Africa calling out Israel for Apartheid.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Well Germany didn't acknowledge the Namibia genocide until 2021. They're fine with acknowledging the Holocaust since they can pin that on a rouge actor, the Nazi's. Since they can't pin their support for Israel on anyone else, they have trouble acknowledging Israel's conduct.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago

Yes, i actaully didn't know about this.

I suppose that's one of the reasons why the Namibian president rebuked Germany for it's stance on Israel in South Africa's genocide case against Israel.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago

since they can pin that on a rouge actor, the Nazi’s

This is a take I don't agree with. There's absolutely elements of that, but they seem to also be very hostile to anyone that doesn't accept it as a "national guilt" that everyone's responsible for (including their Muslim immigrant population).

The right can then use this as a sort of concrete national character to persecute immigrants (thus the CDU support) while the left can use it as a rallying cry that they're fighting fascism (SDP support). It really is a perfect storm for awfulness.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

"Never again" clearly was not taught and learned as being about genocide or violence along etnic lines, but rather as being about the very specific case of Germans vs Jews.

It's like the thief who regrets hitting a specific place after caught and punished, but has no regrets about thiefing in general.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 8 months ago (1 children)

This is the first time in my life I feel ashamed being a German.

The blind support for Israel by the current government and making Germany complicit in a genocide again - it is beyond disgusting. I will never vote for the social democrats or greens again. I will NEVER forgive them this. Luckily in Germany there are other parties waste your vote on.

Of course other western nations under the directive of the US and Israel are complicit in this genocide as well. And I imagine they are pushing fascist propaganda like that leaflet too in various forms. You should be furious at your governments as well.

We learn about fascism and the horrors of nazi Germany in school, but of course, almost all western former colonial powers have committed horrible crimes against humanity and genocide. We Germans should know better that fascist systems amplifying the worst of human nature are NOT uniquely German but that all nations are susceptible to this. Including Israel of course.

I have to confess I missed too exactly how bad the fascist ideology has gotten within Israel. But it's happening everywhere, US, South America, India has gotten pretty bad, Russia of course, Europe is pushing somewhat back... it is impossible to follow it all and not want to turn off. And there is a massive media bias in the German mainstream press. They report the facts about Israel but frame and explain them so that you emotionally root for Israel.

There have been massive protests against the fascist AfD and the misinformation and conspiracy theories they further. And we all slap each other on the back while at the same time the main German news media are spreading these fake and misleading narratives.

And of course the reason US/EU supports Israel is because they are our allies, our pitbull in the middle east, keeping the whole region unstable and under control. The repercussions for "loosing Israel" would be high.

I fear things are only going to get worse in the future as material conditions deteriorate, and climate change creates a billion refugees over the next hundred years. Fascism, wars, genocide and megadeaths will become the new norm.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Germany's leading Social Democratic Party (SPD) and the opposition Christian Democratic Party (CDU

Where greens

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Federal government currently is a coalition of 3 parties social democrats, greens and libertarians.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

But the greens have nothing to do with this one. They were not mentioned once in this article, see:

The culprits are the SPD and CDU, the latter being in the opposition. Your reasoning does not make sense here.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 40 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Germany trying real hard to constantly be on the wrong side of history when it comes to genocide.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

It's more that Germany did such an awful crime against Jews that there's a perceived obligation to never be against Jews or Israel.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Propaganda justifying violence by an etnic group deemed superior against an etnic group deemed inferior complete with fables of how the true victims are the etnic group with more power which is attacking the other one, with the Reich enforcing its use for indoctrination of children.

Goebbels would've been proud.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 29 points 8 months ago

Insanity. We are living in clown world.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 8 months ago

People don’t understand that people who have ideologies like nazi and zionazi will never stop after genociding one ethnic/religious group, after they are done with palestinians/muslims, you can be sure someone else will be next, we can already see this with them bombing churches

[–] [email protected] 17 points 8 months ago (1 children)

It is worth noting that Neukölln is a district with an enormous share of non-ethnic citizens and foreigners, many of whom are Muslims.

I would assume that factored into the decision in some way or another.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

What are non-ethnic citizens?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Exactly what it says? Citizens who are not ethnic nationals, German in this case.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I assume you're using a direct translation of a German term, but in English that doesn't make sense. "Ethnic" as an adjective by itself usually means an ethnic minority, and while "non-ethnic" isn't really a term anyone uses it would be read as meaning the majority ethnicity in a place

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

They're using it based on the ethnic majority vs minority, and it's pretty obvious. And yes, there is an ethnic majority to counterbalance an ethnic minority. They're talking about people who are german citizens but aren't german ethnics.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago

I know, they've already explained it. I'm just explaining why English first-language people might be confused by the phrasing.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Ok, to me that already sounds very different.

"Ethnic minority/ majority" makes sense.

Non-ethnic German is tricky, because there are multiple ethnicities in Germany.

Non-ethnic sounds like someone doesn't have an ethnicity.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago (5 children)
load more comments (5 replies)
[–] LemonLord 13 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Germany is one of the few countries supporting genocide in Gaza and zionistic narrative is common sense in their medias and politics. It's a far right country. They even were thinking in forbidding pro-palestine demonstrations. "Anti-semitic".

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago

anyone remember south park we still hate you?

i plain hate idf as much as hamas as they are both facists.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago

Germans winning at being brain-dead and learning absolutely nothing about their genocidal history.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago

This country is a joke

[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

I'm as appalled as anyone here, but as someone who speaks German, follows German media and worked in Germany for several years, please stop with the misinformed "Germany supporting genocide again, I guess they never change hurr durr" bullshit.

Germans know their history and every kid is taught a deep shame of what past Germans had done. They feel they owe an infinitely large debt to all Jews for the horrors of the holocaust. They all still feel responsible.

There are laws against antisemitism. Again, this is reasonable for a country with this history. They don't want any of this to come back, or to make a joke or justification of what happened. Joke about Nazis in public and you'll find yourself in trouble immediately.

About the current events in Gaza. German media and politicians interpret criticism of Israel as coming from antisemitism, even if the criticism itself may be justified. They may not hear your arguments at all, if they think you're just saying these things because of some secret antisemitic agenda. It's not that there isn't any criticism, but there is very little and it's always surrounded with a lot of "I'm not antisemitic" qualifiers. You can say something about the Israeli government, but not about the existence of Israel itself. You can call the killing in Gaza terrible tragedy, but never a genocide. Public protest doesn't do that kind of nuance, so it's regarded as highly suspect. The chant "from the river to the sea" is tainted, so you can't say it at all, regardless of intent, interpretation of its meaning, they will flat out stop you. In this sense, dialog is certainly difficult. Once you cross the line, they will dismiss anything after that as the ramblings of just another antisemite. It's not possible to have the difficult conversations at all.

I'm not saying I agree with any of this, but this is how German society at large sees it. For me personally, zionism and Israel are harmful remnants of colonialist thinking that have no place in this century. Germany needs to grow up when it comes to their stance on Israel. Israel can't keep oppressing Arabs the way they have. Peace can only come from trying to restore justice and that means equal rights for non-Jews, return of land, right to return of refugees, economic aid, etcetera.

Germany should look at South Africa, Northern Ireland and to their own German Unification as examples from history to follow, and admit their holocaust trauma is distorting their view of the current situation.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 8 months ago (8 children)

I mean you have a point and I agree with most of what you’re saying, but we’re sending weapons and providing rhetorical cover for the Israeli government. E.g. by the police violently interrupting protests, or worse insisting that the claims of genocide are baseless and going as far as announcing to intervene on Israel’s behalf in the ICJ.

Palestinians are being killed by German-delivered ammunition all while Germany is defending Israel in the ICJ. This is clearly supporting the ongoing genocide

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 months ago (1 children)

As a german citizen, I do not fully agree with you. Of course, some people behave the way you described because of the reasons you provided, although I find their reasons mostly stupid since they are so inconsistent: why are other genocides more acceptable than others? Why did Germany only recognize the namibian genocide in 2021? Why doesn't Germany extend the same amount of care, empathy, and concern to LGBTQ people, sinti/roma, and other victims of the holocaust?

On the other hand, there is a growing number of relatively prominent German politicians that have made nazi remarks in semi-public spaces or behind closed doors, or have been uncovered to have a deeply troubling neonazi past, yet they still get invited everywhere and do not see the level of state repression (through the cutting of funds for example) or police violence that pro palestine activists see. Somehow the first point doesn't seem to fully extend and clamp down on these people.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 17 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The entire thing seems to have been taught in Germany as a lesson about one specific race shouldn't have done what they did to another, specific, race, rather than as the Humanitarian Principle that people, any people, independently of race or creed shouldn't be oppressed and killed for their etnicity-

So the framework of cold. calous, violent Racism was preserved but in the German mind a specific race - Jewish People - was moved from the list of "inferior races" to the list of "superior races like us".

(It's funny how your description of it, heavilly ladden with racial terms, is a wonderful display of just how the "regret" about that country's own extreme racist violence fully preserves the entire racist mindset of classifying people as members of races and credos and then judging them and treating them differently because of such races and credos, hency why your description of such learnings is all about a specific race, with no reference whatsoever to individuals or humanitarian principles)

Had the lesson been learned along Humanitarian lines, Germany would not unwaveringly support the "Jewish Nation" as they call it as it over the years became ever more Fascist and violent, cultimating in what very overtly is Genocide with openly racist tones (the "human animals" statement by members of the Israeli Governments says it all) because the etnicity of the majority in a nation is entirelly irrelevant for non-racists when judging that nation on its actions, as is the etnicity of its victims: the actions speak for themselves and for a humanitarian, rather than a racist, the race of those involved neither improves nor worsens the judgment of those actions.

That all this has and is being pushed into the minds of the common German using "old-style" propaganda which is even aimed, as we see here, to children, is a pretty worrisome indication that this is more than "mere" racism in Germany and that Fascism never really left the mindset of that country's power elites and that its ways are still seen as the right way of doing things, both towards the German Population by deploying the kind of Propaganda techniques that Goebbels was so fond of and towards the "enemies of our friends" by continuing to provide "unwavering" support to a Fascist nation currently engaged in the most violent murderous genocide along racial lines since the Nazis.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago (8 children)

Germany is supporting Genocide dude.

You should learn a thing or two about your History. You clearly didn't pay attention in school.

Never again means never again for anyone.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I've concluded that Germans were taught "never again" as a very specific "Germans" vs "Jews" thing rather than the Humanist "never again shall people be murder en masse because of their etnicity" that does not include any specifics about the etnicity or credo of the perpetrators or the victims.

Certainly, that would be very consistent with not just the current behaviour of German politicians when it comes to Israel's Genocide but also how the past events which Germans regret are invariably framed and talked about in race terms, i.e. "Germans" and "Jews", even to the point of excluding other etnicities that the Germans also targetted and murdered in large numbers during WWII such as the Roma.

If one doesn't destroy the racist framework of thinking of people as members of a race first, one is still a racist (even if some races one before though of as "lesser", one now thinks of as "like us"), because one is still running around judging and acting based on prejudices about entire races and credos when dealing with human beings - not treating them as persons but rather treating them as members of groups they were born into.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago

I read it as 1948 Nebraska. It was like the beginning of a bad joke, trying to figure out what's the connection between present day Germany, historical Nebraska and jews...

load more comments
view more: next ›