this post was submitted on 23 Dec 2023

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Alaska's rivers are turning orange and no one knows why (www.newsweek.com)

submitted 10 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 153 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Pretty misleading title.

It is known why the rivers are running orange. It is because the permafrost is thawing.

Sure, the exact, specific process causing the oxidation is being debated by scientists, but ... the reason is because the permafrost is thawing.

Anyway, what this nearly certainly means is that the artic has already blown past the feared warming tipping point and is now releasing methane, which is a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2.

This article should be focusing on how this likely indicates that climate change will intensify faster than commonly understood by the general public.

But instead it diverts from this.

[+] [email protected] -44 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Sure, the exact, specific process causing the oxidation is being debated by scientists, but ...

Which makes the title accurate? I didn't find it misleading at all.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's more like the article is focusing on the wrong part of this story. The exact mechanism can be debated but we know what's happening and why: global warming. The article just doesn't want to acknowledge that so it focuses on the fact that science hasn't conclusively figured out the mechanism.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It would be like saying "the glass feel of the table, but we don't know why it hit the ground" just because we do not understand gravity in every way possible.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I don't like your analogy. We understand the physics of falling pretty well. We do not understand the chemistry of this reaction.

Maybe "the glass fell because of humans". Did they push it off a table? Drop it? Place it inn the counter wrong?

Edit: let me put it this way - the water could turn orange without a melting permafrost right? So while the change in this instance may be triggered by melting permafrost it is not a necessary condition. The cause is something more necessary.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

What makes your think that we do not understand the chemistry here?

Where do we start the "x is caused by y"? The way it actually happened? Then melting permafrost is indeed the first step. If you want to go by how we ended up perceiving it, then you need to start, for example, at how the brown color came to be. Then where that came from. Then what caused it to be made. Etc.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 10 months ago

There's definitely a long chain of events that led to these rivers turning orange.

It would be unsatisfying to say "the universe coming into existence caused it". You need to pick a level to stop at. You're satisfied with "melting permafrost causes water to turn orange" but I think it's very reasonable to step a level down. The title is accurate in that regard. The people complaining seem to want the article to be more political.

BTW this discussion reminds me of when Feynman was asked about magnetism.

https://youtu.be/MO0r930Sn_8?si=k45lFqc0729QQHjX

[–] [email protected] 39 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's a geochemistry issue.

In mine closure, artic mines will protect their tailings and waste rock using thermal covers that insulate them from heat, and allow permafrost to form, thus entombing the PAG (Potentially acid generating material - acid drainage presents orange like this too). The frost prevent oxygen (and dissolved oxygen - from water) from interacting with the material, and causing the acid-generating reaction.

With the thawing of natural permafrost, iron that was frozen (as water soluble reduced iron) is released and then oxidized, causing the orange water.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

So it’s rust.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Rust, or rusty water with battery acid pH

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Battery acid is extremely concentrated compared to that water. Iron can only precipitate if it is very dilute.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

https://pubs.usgs.gov/publication/70022523#:~:text=Extremely%20acidic%20mine%20waters%20with,Mine%20at%20Iron%20Mountain%2C%20CA.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Yes, that was measured somewhere in some amount. But not in this picture here for several reasons.

If left for itself, that is the concentration it tends to go to since the water evaporates, leaving the H2SO4 behind.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at.

Are you talking about the concentration of the water or the pH?

The pH in AMD water is very low. Sub 3 values are not uncommon. If you're talking about metal loading, that too can be relatively high, or extreme in some cases, and the impacts can be huge

I'm not a geochemist, but have to have passable knowledge for my work. I know several colleagues who are geochems or water treatment geeks. I'm happy to reach out to them, if you would like to know more or get into the specifics.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago

"sub 3" is nothing* compared to battery acid. Note that +-1 pH is a difference of 10x. here pH over concentration, note the graph ends at ~10 %, which is 1/3 of battery acid, but is already below pH 0.

*Yes, technically every value below 3 is included in "sub 3". But making an upper limit that is a more than 1'000x lower concentration is absurd.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"sub 3" is nothing* compared to battery acid. Note that 1 pH more or less is a difference of 10x. here pH over concentration, note the graph ends at ~10 %, which is 1/3 of battery acid, but is already below pH 0.

*Yes, technically every value below 3 is included in "sub 3". But making an upper limit that is a more than 1'000x lower concentration is absurd.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Alright, well I'll concede that my estimation of pH for battery acid was off - they have it listed at 0.8. I'm accurate with the AMD levels though.

It can get very bad though, like the iron mountain mine article I linked to, where it's -3.6

With the lower pHs, though, even those around 5, you get metal leaching which quickly becomes a large problem. On top of that, the wastes act as a massive source of both acidity and metals.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 10 months ago

I agree. It is just not THAT acidic. The pH will be above 3.5 to be more specific, which is the pH above which Fe3+ can precipitate. Check this pallet for details.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The answer rhymes with Limate Lange.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Primate Flange?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Pirate Beige?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Pyrite cage?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Irate mage?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Pretty Cage?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Only if you mispronounce 'primate.'

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

I never pisspronunciate my worms

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

And flange

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Sounds like rust. Congratulations, you've struck iron.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

How ironic.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Arctic biomes are the most FUN to start in.
Strike the earth!

[–] [email protected] -2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's not naturally occurring aqua regia, is it?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Where in Alaska can I buy drums of potassium metabisulfite?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Sreetips fan?