Wow, didn't think they'd be getting them by September, that's great news.
this post was submitted on 23 Jul 2023
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War in Ukraine
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War is organized murder and nothing else.
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Unpopular opinion: we shouldn't be sending more murder machines to a war. All it will do is kill more people in name of some power struggle that should not concern them.
Ukraine has also received and used cluster munitions, which is really bad. I remember that there was a lot of outrage when Assad used them in Syria. Now that it's the West, media just glances over the fact that these munitions cause so much civilian death or even support the usage, regardless of how awful they are.
Sure, but I'm not critiquing the Ukrainian people. I'm critiquing the west that is escalating a conflict that's not theirs.
Defending yourself is escalating the situation? What's the alternative you are looking for that Russia will accept?
Bullshit.
Its russia that has escalated it, no, started -and- escalated it all. If you want the war to end, argue for the invader to fuck off.
So we should push for Ukraine to be added to Nato and end the conflict all together. That'll appease everyone right?
They were invaded, it's their land, their people, they can do anything they want to defend them. Russia was using cluster munitions against civilians at least as early as the second week of the invasion, and they've also been dropping butterfly mines all along which look like toys and kids find.
If Ukraine asks for it, they can have it, they're the ones who have to live with the consequences anyway.
What's your alternative solution to dealing with the situation in Ukraine? Genuinely curious.
Aim for de-escalation, create a situation where both sides can save face and settle on borders that support that.
Why does Ukraine need to save face? Why does Ukraine need to give up any territory?
Because otherwise this war will continue. Zelensky needs to save face, because he has said he won't stop until they reclaimed all stolen territory, including Crimea. Putin similarly needs to be able to spin a story towards his people.
How is that in any way Just? How can you say it's okay for one country to invade another and the sensible thing to do is let them have a bit of territory to "Save face"?
What if they declared an end to the war, then Ukraine invaded Russia, took more territory back than they lost and then said "well let's just keep a little territory so we can all save face".
Zelensky doesn't need to save face, not while a single inch of ground is under Russian control.
How is it just that thousands of innocents get murdered over some power struggle? Borders aren't real physical things. They're just lines on a map and have no intrinsic meaning. They're a political concept, just like war is politics.
I believe the dignity of human life (or actually any life) prevails over some man-made concepts like borders.
Sure, but if some asshole dictator can invate a country and get a chunk of its land to "save face", what makes you think he won't just do it again?
Case in point, Crimea in the first place. They tried the whole "Let's just end the war to save lives and save face" thing and a few years later, here we are again.
I think there are other ways to fight authoritarianism. It can definitely include violence, but imo only as a defensive measure. Right now it's all about the offense.
I also don't think Putin or its successor will all of a sudden become non-authoritarian when Ukraine wins back all territory. The threat (and fact) of Russian leadership oppressing people will stay, regardless of how far the Ukrainians push back the Russians. Setting up defenses will be needed regardless of how this war will end.
Right now innocents are dying in terrible conditions over this political play. I understand that you believe that that is less important than winning back territory, to the point that you support creating more suffering and death by letting other parties bring more death machines to the war. I think I have clearly outlined that I value these things differently.
I think there are other ways to fight authoritarianism. It can definitely include violence, but imo only as a defensive measure. Right now it's all about the offense.
I also don't think Putin or its successor will all of a sudden become non-authoritarian when Ukraine wins back all territory. The threat (and fact) of Russian leadership oppressing people will stay, regardless of how far the Ukrainians push back the Russians. Setting up defenses will be needed regardless of how this war will end.
Right now innocents are dying in terrible conditions over this political play. I understand that you believe that that is less important than winning back territory, to the point that you support creating more suffering and death by letting other parties bring more death machines to the war. I think I have clearly outlined that I value these things differently.
On the contrary, I value human life above all else, the issue that we disagree upon is how best to protect that life. I can see your standpoint of stopping the killing now to protect people now, but where I fall on this is that I believe it's only a short term gain and that longer term more people will die as it's clear that Russia intends on occupying the whole of Ukraine.
You seem to class Ukraine taking back its own territory as an offensive measure, but I'd class it as defensive. If someone breaks into your house and you push them out of your bedroom into your hallway, you don't just stop there and say "Okay, lets stop the violence here, you can have the hallway". You wouldn't stop until they're outside of your house again.
At least we can agree that the threat of Russia isn't going away and Ukraine will have to defend its territory in future, but that's all the more reason to push them fully back and reclaim all of the territory: If by the end of all of this, Russia has gained nothing, after all the cost and bloodshed, they'll think twice before trying it again. Allowing them to "save face" now is setting them up to spin the whole thing at some point in the future - maybe 5 or 10 years from now.
Mostly agree with you but some context is required
Cluster bombs historically have a 30% failure rate. The modern American ones have ~1%.
Historically they were used indiscriminately against unknown targets in a large area (they’re really good at that), in Ukraine the Ukrainians are using them against known targets and are logging their use so after the war the area can be cleaned of any duds.
This also isn’t introducing a new weapon to the war; the Ukrainians and Russians have been using their own stocks of cluster bombs from the start, the Ukrainians are just asking for a resupply of the better American ones.
Now that it's the West, media just glances over the fact
Which media are you consuming? Talkshows discuss that for hours and News shows always mentioned the problem of cluster ammo.
the fact that these munitions cause so much civilian death
No civilians will get killed by this munition from the US. Ukrainians use them on invading soldiers on evacuated land.
Russia used cluster ammo first and uses it for offense. Ukraine is using it for defense.
That's the whole issue: Ukraine changed A LOT in the last 30 years and wants to belong to the west. And the west thinks so aswell. But Russia can't accept it and has to learn once and for all, that bullying a satellite country doesn't bind it to russia (Watch Belarus, it'll be next). Also Russia thinks it can just force Ukraine to like russia and associate with it. Europe can't tolerate this and will go to full lengths to teach Russia.
Now you are promoting to forsake a weaker victim for the sake of peace (your peace, not peace for Ukraine). You're completely ignoring what russia does to civilians on conquered land. History (Germany, Afghanistan, Syria, Mali) should make it clear that the killing won't end when Ukraine fails to push Russia back.
Quite the opposite. Bucha shows, it will just start the slaughterfest.