this post was submitted on 04 Mar 2024
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the_dunk_tank

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It's the dunk tank.

This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.

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Hunger Games is about revolutionary anti-imperial class struggle

George Lucas said the Empire is inspired by America and the Rebels by the Viet Minh

The Matrix was created by a trans woman and at least partly an allegory for being trans

Divergent is shitty lib fanfiction but very obviously anti-conservative

Alan Moore was a communist or anarchist

wow these movies are just like January 6th when we resisted communism by smearing our shit on the capitol walls!! so-true biaoqing-copium

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (4 children)

I will maintain that Lucas' comparison of "Rebels as Viet Minh" is restricted to Return of the Jedi, and mostly has to be with them operating in a forest. Other than that, they're the US fighting the Empire's Nazis in WWII.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago (2 children)

George definitely had the Viet Minh in mind during ANH. George was way more recently out of college then and the war had just ended. Luke's role in the final product goes from all kinds of serial sci fi ideas to being essentially a young man of military age who has little future available, but has no real stake in the empire winning. Even wanting to join originally, despite hating it, because he sees it as his way out, an inevitability. Only for the empire to butcher his family and make him have to contend with the reality of fascism. The rebels in ANH are not exactly the viet minh, but Luke is for sure meant to be a kid who joins SDS. Remember Lucas was drafted for Vietnam but exempt due to diabetes which was genetic, having killed his grandpa. So he was saved from joining something evil, by chance and a prior family tragedy.

Looking at the earlier drafts Luke is just not that kind of character. I think last second having to bail on apocalypse now! made him approach Luke from a different perspective.

Ondaatje, Michael (2005). The Conversations: Walter Murch and the Art of Editing Film. Knopf. p. 70. Originally George Lucas was going to direct ('Apocalypse Now'), so it was a project that George and John [Milius] developed for [American] Zoetrope. That was back in 1969. Then, when Warner Brothers cancelled the funding for Zoetrope, the project was abandoned for a while. After the success of 'American Graffiti' in 1973, George wanted to revive it, but it was still too hot a topic, the [Vietnam] war was still on, and nobody wanted to finance something like that. So George considered his options: What did he really want to say in 'Apocalypse Now?' The message boiled down to the ability of a small group of people to defeat a gigantic power simply by the force of their convictions. And he decided, All right, if it's politically too hot as a contemporary subject, I'll put the essence of the story in outer space and make it happen in a galaxy long ago and far away. The rebel group were the North Vietnamese, and the Empire was the United States. And if you have 'the force,' no matter how small you are, you can defeat the overwhelmingly big power. 'Star Wars' is George's transubstantiated version of 'Apocalypse Now.'

This is not to say it is a great allegory, I never liked the ROTJ part of it, it plays into bad liberal stereotypes about the Vietnamese

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago

George is alright sometimes. There's an interview where he basically says the USSR allowed more artistic freedom to create art.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Well that quote is pretty rock-solid, being from someone other than George Lucas, so I'll concede I was wrong. I will say that him flip-flopping on the origins of Darth Vader in your other link is a good example of why I thought he flip-flopped on this too; he just strikes me as that kind of guy.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago

I actually do agree with Lucas saying this stuff prior to around 20 years ago is true. I haven't done a deep dive on it and a lot of good sources make the claim, and his connection to AN drives it home, but there is a lack of statements from him during that era. And yeah George is like Stan Lee without the plagarism

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago

Nope. It was the case in the first star wars as well. George Lucas was going to direct Apocalpyse Now but ducked out semi reluctantly to make his own thing which ended out being Star Wars. If anything by return of the jedi he was at his most capitalist shitbrain phase. Sf debris did a great multi part series about George Lucas called the heros journey, shadows journey and hermits journey that really get into the dude and his rise and fall. It'd very well researched and paints a pretty tragic picture, he thought every compromise.eould be the one that let's him buy his way out of the industry and get full creative and financial freedom to make a state of the art film school and stuff and then the corporate obligations that come with that slowly destroyed those dreams. He's a dude with a lot going on under the hood.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago (1 children)

So the Nazis had taken over the whole globe (galaxy) and forced the US to hide and move between planets with secret bases and poorer weaponry?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago (3 children)

If you substitute "western europe" instead it makes more sense, secret bases and poorer weaponry works for partisans. The US/allies in general are more represented in the space battles. I'll admit it's messy and doesn't map one to one, but the Vietnam War parallel is hardly perfect either (the empire is a domestic force, not a foreign occupier, for instance). See my other longer response as well.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago

Eh Viet Minh were under occupation by the US backed ROV so that checks out to some degree. Plus for Endor at least, they are fully foreign occupiers as with Tatooine

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

There's a copypasta from wayyyu back about a group playing a star wars ttrpg in public when an old ww2 vet and his wife take an interest, they explain the basics of Star wars and the dude replies 'so the rebels are the French resistance and the empire are space nazis?" He gets a yup from the group, joins in and becomes squad leader. It's one of those probably fake but damn I hope it's true ones.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago

I’ve read that one before, if I recall correctly the vet was a British commando.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I’ve never seen him mention the comparison is such a specific way. What makes you think that?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I've never seen an interview before maybe 20 years ago where he makes that claim at all, but I'll admit that something could exist and I could just be wrong. Anyway, to start I'd say that Star Wars is generally apolitical: the big evil empire follow the ideology of being evil and want to control the galaxy because they are evil, the rebels are the good guys who fight for good. As a result, looking to the text for political parallels isn't really possible, instead leaving us with the much mushier realm of vibes and aesthetics. To run through some points:

  • Lucas was inspired by lots of WWII films (see this article for a few examples), and basically just incorporated whatever he thought looked cool (like the rebel award ceremony in ANH being inspired by fucking Triumph of the Will. This leads to many thing being US (or maybe Allies)-coded, because most films he would have seen would have been about the americans/allies in WWII, with american/allied planes.
  • Similarly, the main climax of two of the movies are big space battles. IIRC the vietnamese airforce was tiny, leading to very few aerial engagements, while WWII had many famous aerial battles.
  • The war between empire and rebels is depicted as an existential struggle between good and evil. Nazis serve as the cultural shorthand for generic evil, which makes the rebels the allies by default.
  • Vader is really close to the german "vater" for father.
  • In RotJ the rebels launch a guerilla attack in a forest using the local indigenous people and their relatively low-tech weaponry to clown on the empire. This type of thing doesn't really occur in the two preceding movies.
  • Low-hanging fruit, but all of the main characters are white.

The one easy counter I'll concede is that tie fighters are clearly an analogy for carrier-based planes.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

So Vader might actually come from a jock Lucas went to highschool with. Meet Gary Vader https://www.forcematerial.com/home/2016/12/01/the-origin-of-darth-vader-the-name

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

That surprised the hell out of me cause of all the other sith names, I figured it was just short for 'invader'sinxe the other bad guys had names based off evil sounding words, Maul, idiots (like insidious), tyrannus. I guess he just made up.that theme after.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Yeah when Vader is named he is very much not Luke's father. The connection is retroactive but Lucas sorta ran with it and made it a Sith thing by the time he got to Sidious

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago

Lucas does super on the nose naming a lot in general and it's just a surprise Vader was a real guys name and not just an example of that. Weird coincidence. Maybe it's what gave him that ideas which eventually led to General Grievious

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The tie in novels for ANH make it clear Darth Vader is just his name. Darth isn't a title, it's his first name.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

Yup. It is clear in the film itself. Obi-Wan repeatedly calls him "Darth" like it is his first name. The Obi-Wan show even tried to play with that by the end with Obi-Wan calling him Darth once he is sure Anakin is truly dead or rather chose to be this