this post was submitted on 20 Feb 2024
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[Dormant] Electric Vehicles
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BYD is coming on fierce. Other car makers ought to be very afraid right now. $15K is cheaper than most gas vehicles. That’s … compelling to say the least.
We're just not getting any of the chinese EVs. Many of them are only so cheap because of how much their government is subsidizing them so they can build market share.
~~The car only has 75 miles of range which just won't fly at all in the US. Anything sub 200 is considered unusable here.~~ nvm thats the phev model. That's not bad for a phev. but 260 miles of range and 15k has to be heavily subsidized. And I doubt Americans would be willing to buy a Chinese car.
US auto industry is also heavily subsidised.
When we do, we call it “creating jobs and growing the economy “
When someone else does it, it’s cheating .
There was a lot of talk about how nobody would buy chinese cars in Australia too... they are everywhere.
People can get a chinese diesel dual cab 4x4 pickup for $37k Australian, the CHEAPEST Ford Raptor starts at $87k.
The raptor is the top end performance version of the ranger. Some quick googling says an Australian ranger starts around $37k as well.
For a single cab, manual, 2wd base model with an alloy tray...
60k for the cheapest diesel dual cab auto Ranger, Hiluxes are similarly priced.
Edit: This is the one Im looking at, works out at $25000 USD.
I was gonna say, in the past people bitched about Korean cars, now Hyundai and Kia are everywhere. Even further back they bitched about Japanese cars.
Xenophobes gonna xenophobe.
About half right. The other half is that a developing nation basically has to start at low end manufacturing like textiles, then work their way into things like cheap toys, and slowly build their technical expertise and abilities along the way. While they're making cheap, low-quality products they develop a reputation for cheap, low-quality products, which biases people against anything made in that country. But, if everything goes right, they start to produce medium and then high quality products and shed their old reputation.
Korean products used to be the cheap junk, but now they're well-made. A lot of Chinese companies are starting to put out high quality stuff, and you can see that reflected in the pride they're starting to take in their products. I'm seeing more and more Chinese companies making no effort to hide the fact that they're Chinese, something that was quite rare even a decade ago.
Thanks for sharing your analysis!
This same thing happens every couple of decades. In the 70s and into the 80s, no one wanted to buy a Japanese car - or virtually any Japanese products. They were considered inferior to their American-made counterparts (cars, but also electronics like radios and TVs). The inferiority of Japanese products was regular material for stand up comics and late night TV. The only reason, we were told, that anyone was buying their products was that they were dumping them on us at a loss. Now, Toyota isn’t synonymous with “cheap piece of crap import” but is considered a quality product that rivals American automakers. If you can tolerate a large dose of regular old establishment racism and want to flash back to how America saw the Japanese in the 80s, check out Michael Crichton’s Rising Sun. Or really about 70% of what was produced in the 80s, I guess, but that one is a keeper.
Fast forward a decade or two and they were saying the exact same thing about Korean cars. Same with Korean electronics in general - why buy Korean when you can buy Japanese?
Now it’s Chinese cars. I’m sure in the next decade or two it will be Vietnamese or Indian cars.
Even 1955 Doc Brown in Back To The Future knocks back Japanese made electronics
We still don’t like Korean cars that much in the US. Kyundai were making some really good progress at establishing themselves as a real brand. Then the sand issues came out, followed up by the stealing, sprinkle in some bad choices all around and I’d say they’ve set themselves back a good 5-10 years.
The Japanese really stuck around by making quality cars. Mitsubishi barely exists in the US, Isuzu couldn’t make it (outside of trucks), and I can’t believe Suzuki made it until 2012. They rode on the coat tails of Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (who’s currently having a bit of a crisis). These cheap Chinese cars are not quality. I’ve been in a number of them in Costa Rica and they all start out nice, but rapidly fall apart. Some of them are even rusting away, in Costa fucking Rica. You’ll still see 1950s land cruisers casually driving around down there. But I don’t think any of these Chinese cars will make it that long.
Maybe with their luxury brands they’ll make something lasting. But from my limited experience with them, I can’t imagine Americans buying them, let alone not laughing at them.
What sand issue?
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2017/04/07/hyundai-kia-recall-engine/100163176/
I believe they expanded it later on to even more models.
We laughed at the first wave of Japanese imports too, but people bought them for the price. Now many of us prefer them for the quality even at a higher price.
Yugo went the other way. We laughed at them but a few people bought them for the price. However they soon found out just how bad the product was and no one was willing to see if they’d improve.
Which way will Chinese manufacturers go? It’s all a guess since it hasn’t happened yet but I know Chinese companies can make reliable stuff with decent quality. I think their chances are pretty good against legacy manufacturers unwilling to risk change in the face of their pre-existinG product lines
It’s take a decade but Korean cars are killing it in the UK .
I re read rising sun recently…. It’s astonishing in 2024
Yeah, unless they can buy a car for 15k. Principled boycotts of blood diamonds and child labor cocoa are more likely than someone making working wages willingly paying a 40% premium for a legacy GM shitcan.
Not that BYD is going to be selling a model 3 competitor at that price, but no one is selling a new Camry near that either. The 1st Gen civic was a basket case too, now it's a spaceship and that's without government-led IP raids...
While there are tensions with China, people still voted with their wallets in previous such “invasions”.
Mind you, that's the price in China. By the time they bring those to the US or Europe, that price usually doubles.
Still, $30K … still compelling.
But not really cheaper than a cheap ICE car. It will be interesting to watch how their pricing works out in the end.
No way that can release one here in the US for the same price as a 10 year old Camry. Unless the Chinese government is going to pay for 1/2 the cost of the car, we aren't going to see brand new vehicles selling for $15k.
Even at $15K or $20K, they would be underselling most new EV and ICE models. They're already looking at opening plants in Mexico: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinas-byd-plans-new-electric-vehicle-plant-mexico-says-nikkei-2024-02-13/
If the U.S. changes trade rules, they'll just do what Japanese, S. Korean, and European countries did back in the 80s and start U.S. subsidiaries.
That's a you problem. The parent comment doesn't even mention US and it is not the center of the universe. China is one of the top polluter currently, and if they alone phase out ICE cars, it would be a net benefit for the world (if they use renewables).
Not everything has to reach the US to be considered "cheap". Western news mentioning USD doesn't mean the company is looking for people in US specifically to buy it. Same as not everyone buying Tesla gets it in local prices abroad.
This announcement coincides with BYD announcing they're building a plant in Mexico likely targeting the US market, and them running sponsored english articles talking about how they're beating companies like Tesla in order to drum up demand in the US.
Also I wouldn't be so sure about this reducing pollution in China as these cars are being discarded like outdated iPhones. https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
We're seeing that across my commodity chemical market prices too. The prices China offers seem... literally impossible. We are almost certain that China is paying either all the capital for the infrastructure, or just subsidizing 10x harder than we (US/EU) do.
I witnessed them do the same with photovoltaic cells a decade ago which lead to my wife's employer shutting down their US manufacturing facility to send it overseas. Nobody could compete with their subsidized solar panels.
When they start selling in the US, the destruction of legacy manufacturers will be worse the the 1970s small car invasion
I believe it. We need reliable infrastructure for this revolution now.