this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2024
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Libs in my circles have latched onto a part where he (they claim, I haven't watched it) says the molotov-ribbentrop pact was to protect Czechoslovakia which is pretty brainwormy. I've been responding to ribbentrop shit for the last few days because of the uptick in discussion about it.
Germany and Poland already shared the annexation of parts of Czechoslovakia by then. How would the Molotov-Ribbentrop plan change that?
The plan of the Western powers was for Germany and Poland to invade the USSR, after giving them Czechoslovakia, while Japan enters the war from the east.
The Brits signed the Dusseldorf agreement after Munich (annexation of Sudetenland) to establish industrial cooperation between the British and Nazi Germany, months before Germany invasion of Poland. Clearly they did not expect to declare war on Nazi Germany at all. They all fully expected Hitler to turn east towards the USSR.
Stalin’s diplomats engineered the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact at the last minute (apparently without Hitler’s involvement) to drive a wedge into this plan, forcing Germany to invade Poland, and in turn forcing the British and the French to declare war on Germany.
The entire Japanese cabinet resigned after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed. Like, seriously, ask yourself, why would the entire Japanese government resign just because two foreign countries signed a neutrality pact?
Question, but how could Hitler to turn east towards the USSR if Poland is in the way? Unless they expected the Poles and Nazis to collaborate? or did they believe he wouldn't invade France and do the USSR next? Is there any evidence of this?
Poland had been collaborating with Nazi Germany.
Granted, the thesis I wrote above came from Said Gafurov’s new book Pledge of Victory, which provided evidence to the compelling argument that the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a last-minute act to foil the German-Polish-Japanese offensive against the USSR. I am very slowly going through the book because my Russian is not good and I need a lot of help with translation etc.
However, what gave me confidence is that Losurdo’s Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend also gave a very similar treatment of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact:
continued:
This all makes sense to me, what I am trying to square is what’s the thinking in Berlin while all this is going on? Why do they make the choices they do? With the benefit of hindsight, why would Hitler ever even consider getting on Britain or France’s bad side? We know Hitler wanted his Lebensraum to the east, it seems like it would be straightforward to just hash that out with the eventual “Allies”?
The best answer I have is, Germany and the US/UK/France ultimately were never on the same page. I think the Allies wanted Germany to invade the USSR, but kind of in the way they want the Ukraine/Russia war in the present to grind on as long as possible. They wanted to use Germany to wear down the USSR. Best case scenario for them is for both Germany and the USSR to essentially destroy each other, so you eventually get two weakened states beholden to western hegemony.
That said, I can’t help but wonder how much the irrationality of fascism comes into play here. And I hate to ascribe irrational motives to anyone, even fascists… I have a hard time with any other explanation for a lot of the diplomatic and foreign policy choices the Nazis made.
Keep in mind the French government was going through a shitload of changes at this time. They collapsed mid-crisis more or less and significant changes occurred. The Germanys couldn't be guaranteed who they would be negotiating with. The British also had internal strife from people like Churchill which made it more difficult at times for Chamberlain to pressure the French.
This is on top of the populations being far and away pro an alliance with the USSR. So Germany can't trust that Britain can fully just control French policy, or at least is not privy to how cucked the French really were to Britain and so worried immensely about the French government's gestures towards the Soviets. Remember things got so far as Romania offering the Soviets their airspace to protect Czechoslovakia. Germany could've been dealing with a real alliance any second now as far as they knew. They picked what is called the phony war over risking that
I assume they misunderstood him in the first place, cause it was not to protect Czechoslovakia, it was in response to the betrayal of the Czechs. There was no protecting them by the time the pact was signed
Yeah I assumed something about that was wrong. I haven't watched it. Maybe worth checking what he did say if they're going to go on about it forever.
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Whataboutism? What about deez nuts?
Precisely dear
I generally don't call it an invasion. The government of poland had fled the country by the time the ussr moved into the east almost entirely unopposed because the country was ungoverned. They moved into an ungoverned territory and saved 2 million jews in the process. Then later they saved the rest of the country. And preserved it, and its culture, under lebensraum both of which would have been deleted like the americans did to the lands they captured.
From memory Stalin proposed to deploy troops in Czechoslovakia if Poland give them transit and basing rights? I had thought that was before the pact was signed and when he was still trying to get Anglo and French support for a security pact
Yes but he also was willing to do it if France would let them in and/or if Romania would let them use their airspace which Romania agreed to. The problem was Britain and France intentionally stalled this with fake promises of an alliance until Poland decided to help Germany invade Czechoslovakia at which point the west completely capitulated. Chamberlain is honestly less evil somehow than the Polish government
If a genocidal monster is calling your country the hyena of Europe...
Saying that Poland refusing to cede Danzig to Germany was the cause of WW2 is a bit iffy I think. Why is Danzig a legitimate target to cede while the Sudetenland was an outrage?
It would be nice if people were less easily impressed with blood and soil propaganda.