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this post was submitted on 07 Feb 2024
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I would argue the Israeli/Palestine one.
Hamas wants to genocide Israel (literally in their founding document) but failing miserably. Absolutely guilty of a war crime or two.
Israel is very likely guilty of a number of war crimes due to proportionality, failure to minimize civilian casualties, and reasonable cause for infrastructure damage and blockades. The fact they have only killed off something like 3% of the population with this much damage and overwhelming force means they aren't committing genocide, or they are doing a pretty poor job of it. Individuals and small groups are likely killing off civilians and should be held to account (public hanging is a good way to do it) but question the broader Israeli goal.
Hamas absolutely guilty of war crime (clear cut), could add genocide if they were winning, Israel unsure as much less clear cut. Could they be - absolutely.
So your argument against the fact of Israel committing genocide is they aren't doing it fast enough? Wow.
Kind of?
Historically at least it’s a pretty normal amount of civilian casualties and their stated goal of Hamas vs Palestine helps a lot.
But everything outside the conflict should be enough, it wasn’t exactly paradise to be a Palestinian living in Israel pre-conflict
I think the thing that many aren't following is that there are other war crimes than genocide, and one doesn't mean the other.
ICJ ruled that the claims of genocide are credible, so I'm going to keep calling it genocide.
Correct - that's the South African led one isn't it? The 60 odd page full of legal jargon one i read a few days ago? Posted the same time as the Middle East now article that was edited?
Because the conclusions they came to, in section 63 off the top of my head, is that there are credible claims, and the best way forward is to call for a cease fire so claims can be investigated. It did not say Israel is committing genocide - it said there are events and actions that need to be investigated on both sides.
It discusses the Israel blockade of aid, and Israel response as to why it was done. That attacks were carried out on civilian infrastructure that Hamas was using... and the blatant attack on civilians that sparked off this whole new round of suffering.
One war crime does not justify the other, make no mistake I am not claiming that. But it seems awfully continent how many people are taking one line of a very detailed and balanced report and ignoring the entirety of the context of it.
What do you mean by pre-conflict? collective punishment has been Israeli policy since its founding.
Before the current situation ie. October 7th Israel has been quite hostile to Palestinians
Well let's apply this argument to every other part of life - because yes, if you are killing off a population when you have an overwhelming force yes it will be quick.
Is 3% of a population being Mexican an invasion, or is it people living their life?
Is a 100pt to 103pt basketball game a clear example of the best team, or a small skill difference?
Is 3% of crime being committed by a black person indicative of a crime driven cultural issue, or a few people?
A 3% death rate in a modern conflict in a high density urban environment is not a genocide - civilians die in war. Have many been killed needlessly- absolutely. Are there questions on how Israel has been operating - absolutely. Are there individuals in the IDF that have deliberately killed civilians in cold blood - about as close to 100% as you can get. Is it a genocide - no.
That's a lot of words to say you're racist and pro-genocide, but you go off, I guess.
Thats alot of loaded words thrown out without any backing, evidence or legal bias.
Or was it too much reading so you just threw out the first insult you could?
Icj ruled it a genocide so that's what I'm calling it. You're doing a lot of work to justify genocide. Do you find that rewarding?
They haven't ruled it's genocide yet. That'll take years. They've ruled there is sufficient evidence to investigate if what has happened is genocide. Note all the caveats and qualifiers:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/key-takeaways-world-court-decision-israei-genocide-case-2024-01-26/
For context: over 10 million people died in the Congo Free State. It is generally agreed that it wasn't a genocide, because it wasn't intentional. It is possible that the ICJ will ultimately decide what happened in Gaza is not genocide.
Thank you for putting this much more eloquent that I have managed over the last week or so.
I've argued with soo many people over the ICJ report - they pick the two words "genocide" and "Israel" without reading the full content behind it and the conclusions it drew. Which is a shame because its a beautifully written, factual and balanced report.
Holocaust denial? Four years isn’t fast enough to be a genocide.
Nope - we have evidence of a systematic approach to killing off multiple cultures. Plans, objectives, methods and an entire system of extermination in place.
Your effectively comparing the Nazi holocaust to their invasion of France that also killed civilians.
Is Israel’s force in Palestine proportionate and justified, in your opinion?
TLDR: questions need to be asked on proportionality, but the attack as a whole is justified.
Proportionality is not equal strength, or even number of people killed. Its engaging in a way that minimizes civilian casualties and preserves civilian infrastructure while eliminating a threat.
The issue is that Hamas is using civilian structures to fight its war - logistics, armed, housing - and seizing civilian aid convoys for their own use. Hamas is deliberately placing civilians in harms way, removing protection from civilian structures, and denying aid. It is not a war crime to put a bomb through the roof of a hospital that an opposition armed forces is using, but it does kill civilians.
Is their response proportional. There are questions that need to be asked and views debated. Blocking aid convoys for civilians is not proportional, but what if you are observing your opposing force steal them from their own civilians and they aren't getting it anyway? What intel was used to decide on attacks on hospitals, temples, graveyards,was it sufficient to justify the attack, and how were civilian casualties minimized?
Was the attack justified? Yes. Hundreds killed, hostages taken. Israel has a right to defend itself from a designated terrorist organization.
None of this however justifies individual actions where civilians are killed in cold blood. Hang the lot of them.
You asked a question, they answered it seriously. You may disagree with that answer, but responding with a meme makes it clear you're not a serious person.
It's especially jarring because we're talking about literal war crimes, the holocaust and possible genocide in Gaza. You don't seem to grasp the suffering that entails, and seem to think it's all a bit of a joke. Just another topic to have a fun little internet argument over.
Like you're some 13 year old kid posting an emoji response to a decapitation video on 4chan.
It's not a great look to be honest.
I treat genocide deniers with the seriousness they deserve. Are you seriously defending a genocide denier? It’s not a great look to be honest.
Vote difference says yes. You wanna try some facts at some point?
Why? They obviously don’t matter to a Zionist.
Hamas can't be guilty of war crimes because they are not a country or international government organization. They can't legally wage war. War crimes can only be committed by a country that can legally wage war.
Hamas is a local government / criminal organization. They can't commit war crimes any more than the Mafia can. They just commit regular crimes and hate crimes (regular crimes motivated by racial hatred), which they are obviously doing.
Israel is probably guilty of crimes against humanity and genocide. Forcing millions of people to move is genocide. They are not waging a war on any country, so legally this is just a large police action.
Who do you blame for mafia or cartels running free in a country? The perpetrators and the government. The Israeli government has the obligation to protect people living in Israel and what it claims as its territory in Gaza. They haven't done that for Israelis, Gazans, or residents of the West Bank.
This is where a few things start to blur. Hamas is both the government of Palestine and a designated terrorist organization by everyone but the UN security council (impotent veto pricks).
War crimes can only be committed in state-state conflict - Palestine v Israel, state - state. But at the same time terrorists cannot as it is not war - its conflict (actually the definition). So can Palestine be done for war crimes but its government and militants not? Terrorists don't get protection in protected places like hospitals and temples and therefore remove their protected status, but they can't be done for endangering civilians as they aren't a state that has to follow the rules of war.
Just say you're a Zionist.
Just say you don't actually have an argument and resort to lesser insults than my 6 year old would use at school.
I like you. Succinct.
God damn it, why are there people that think that genocide is competition in effectiveness on every damn side?
Primary genocide requirement is intent. And out of five definitions, only one involves outright killing.
Read the convention before arguing about genocide. (1) (2)
Can you not? The meme is about the Uyghurs.
I could, but that's not the part I'm disagreeing with