390
Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents
(cleantechnica.com)
this post was submitted on 01 Jan 2024
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I was among those worrying about range until I spent 5 minutes thinking about what I actually do on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.
We'd still have my wife's ICE van, we both work from home, and 99% of the time my work-related travel is local (within 5 miles). My wife's van can pull the camper for our camping trips, or for our longer drives.
I have no good reason not to get an EV for my next car.
I was too - that was until this year when I've had to do multiple 800km long trips and I've found out that mentally I can't really do longer than 200-250 km without a 20 min break. With that in mind, most of the EVs would be perfectly fine for me.
This is still a problem when there is not enough charging spots for peak days.
In France most people go to summer vacation at the same time, and on those days when all the charging spots are taken and you have to wait 20 minutes for one of the owner to finish his break it's a real problem.
I would actually consider if you actually need 2 cars at all given your description of the situation. If we're worried about the environment flat getting rid of a car is a bigger win than an EV.
If a car sits in the driveway 99% of the year, it’s not hurting the environment for 99% of its existence. If they continue to use it as a daily driver, I agree with you. But keeping a second vehicle for situations where it is specifically suited isn’t really that big a problem.
Not driving a car for long periods of time is bad for the car. That means that they would replace it after a few years, and still have two cars, instead of keeping just the one. It takes a lot of resources to build a car, even more so for EVs.
While kinda true, there is general maintenance for such situations. Also nothing stopping you from driving it around the block once a month.
Well, it's the build cost for a new car vs not building that car in terms of the environment. I guess buying a used car would alleviate that, but at some point having another car built is worse than not having it built.
I've very seriously considered that. Right now, we could probably go down to one car without issue. We have two reasons why I'd like to maintain a second, though. We have young kids, and we are already starting to run them around to different places at the same time. We're looking to move soon, and the idea is to move outside of town where we have more room. That would make basically every drive longer, which would increase the likelihood of needing a second vehicle.
Either way, an EV should be fine. Depending on cost, I might stick with a small, used ICE this time, because I don't need much. But I'm not at that point quite yet, so maybe things will change by the time I'm ready.
Repairability is a big one for reasons not to get a new ev for me
Why would you think EVs are not repairable?
Because they are relatively new in the automotive world. I can take my '08 CRV to just about any auto parts store in America and get just about any part I need (or take it to about any third party repair shop with the same results). Good luck doing that with most EVs especially Teslas. Tesla is the most egregious example as they are anti right to repair and have seemed to take a page out of Apple's book as far as locking down their supply chain for parts.
Hopefully this will get better with time as third party shops have time to acclimate themselves and their technicians to EV architecture, and EV-specific parts become more available. Though the latter I feel is highly dependent on manufacturers not trying to turn EVs into phones in terms of repairability/serviceability.
In the meantime, as an average Joe without a lot of money, I really like the idea of keeping my relatively low cost older ICE vehicles because if shit hits the fan, if I can't fix it relatively cheaply, there will likely be multiple shops that can without it costing me an arm and a leg and/or taking weeks or months to wait on the manufacturer to supply the parts needed.
There really aren't that many components to these things, and few of them are moving parts. There's no water pump, alternator, starter, or A/C compressor on an accessory belt (there is an A/C compressor, of course, but it's powered more like a home unit). No oil changes to worry about. No pollution/exhaust system. There is a coolant system for the battery, and a transmission, but neither of them have nearly as much wear as an internal combustion engine with its, well, internal combustion. The transmission is a bunch of fixed gears that don't need to shift. Brake pads hardly get used since the car primarily uses regenerative braking.
Yeah, Tesla kinda sucks when things do go wrong. I definitely avoided them. But if a car is less likely to break down, I'd be ok with a little trade-off in availability for what little would actually break.
Looking at the tires on my Tesla, eventually replacing those looks scary
I think this argument is kind of a misconception. Just because an EV drivetrain has fewer moving parts than an ICE doesn't necessarily mean it's more reliable. There is a decent AP article from November 2023 that touches on this and suggests that EVs are actually far more unreliable than traditional ICE vehicles. I would link it but I can't figure out how to remove all the tracking junk from the URL.
Regardless I really like the idea of one day owning an EV so I hope most of these issues will be worked out as the technology matures.
Edit (source): https://web.archive.org/web/20231207233608/https://apnews.com/article/electric-vehicles-consumer-reports-gasoline-vehicles-charging-eed9c3b8d86c1f7708b7c6e2d4dbf55e
I think the reliability numbers are skewed because there are a lot of corners being cut. For example, Tesla sells the most EVs, but they had played fast and loose with quality control to keep their numbers pumped up. Then there are cheaper auto manufacturers entering the market because the barrier to entry is lower with EVs and their quality control is all over the place. Given the same quality control as the larger automakers, EVs should be more reliable. Dealerships have fought against selling EVs because they miss out on lucrative service visits.
Not necessarily, no. But when many of these moving parts turn at a couple thousand RPM under normal use and often get used a couple hours per day, that's a lot of wear and room for error
Aside from battery and the electric motor itself, mechanical parts are easy to come by from other sources than Tesla. Parts related to e.g. suspension, brakes and steering are all easily bought without involving Tesla at all, and can be changed by any mechanic.
Again, why would you think EVs are different?
Third party shops are not manufacturing parts.
If your wanna talk about Teslas, I'll agree. If you wanna talk about "new cars" I'll agree again. But none of this is exclusive specifically to EVs.
Because third party repairs are often unavailable or void the warranty. Cars are becoming a subscription service to dealerships.
No they don't. Cars have long since had regulations allowing for third party repairs.
Why would you take to a third party if you're under warranty?
What kind of subscription allows you to repair the car?
This is not exclusive to EVs.
I think the cost to replace the battery is an issue.
You replace the battery of an EV just about as often as you replace the engine block in an ICE car. Both do happen . . . but very, very infrequently.
That doesn’t sound right. I’ve got 200,000 miles on my 2015 Passat TDI, and expect another 100,000 easily with minimal repair/maintenance cost.
What’s the service life of the battery of a ten year old EV? The electric motor should be almost indestructible, but I have serious doubts that the battery capacity will still be reasonable after the same amount of time, even if you baby it.
I'm on my 3rd EV . . and none of them have been a Tesla. I am FAR from a Tesla/Musk fanboy . . .but they do release the exact data you are asking about. Here you go . . 12% degradation after 200,000 miles.
https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/
Roughly speaking, EV's lose range at a similar rate that ICE engines lose horsepower.
https://carbuzz.com/news/10-reasons-why-engines-lose-horsepower-over-time
But a 10 year old Tesla is worth much more than a 10 year old BMW . . .
https://ark-invest.com/articles/analyst-research/ev-batteries-value/
Here is a Nissan Leaf used as a taxi . . .100,000 miles with no noticeable battery degradation . . .
https://www.speakev.com/threads/c-c-taxis-100-000-mile-nissan-leaf-full-battery-included.8804/
There's not a ton of data on older EVs so it's kind of hard get a clear picture on their longevity. I know they're constantly improving and I'll eventually get one, just not today 🤷🏻.
I cannot disagree about being wary of Tesla . . I certainly am. Here's an article about data from 6,300 EV's from 12 manufactures. Also includes a cool graphing tool . . . https://electrek.co/2019/12/14/8-lessons-about-ev-battery-health-from-6300-electric-cars/ Graphing the data: https://storage.googleapis.com/geotab-sandbox/ev-battery-degradation/index.html
As for my own EV's . . I was an early adopter with the 24kWh Nissan Leaf - only had about 65 miles of "real world" range. Didn't keep that long and traded it for a VW eGolf . . . 125 "real world" miles. Had that for several years . . .but traded it early in 2023 for a VW ID4. With 300+ miles, I no longer think about range. None of them had/have more than 30,000 miles . . .and I never noticed any degradation at all. The impact of cold weather is a MUCH more more noticeable issue!!
That's still at max, 6 years of data. Am I reading that right? But, to be fair there's no indication of a dramatic drop off, at worst that data is incomplete.
I wouldn't be worried about buying a brand new EVs. My problem is that I exclusively buy 3-5 year old cars because that's the most cost effective way to buy them. So if I bought a 5 year old EV and owned it for another 5 years it's a 10 year old EV which is the very edge of the data is be able to find. That kind of unknown is a bit unsettling along with some other personal use case issues.
Thank you for the info though.
A few things to casually point out:
EV batteries are mandated by law to have an 8 year, 100K mile warranty. It's fair that you'd want it to last significantly longer, but if these things were built to go kaput immediately after with very little buffer from the warranty period, you're risking a lot of "below average" batteries having to be replaced under warranty - not to mention the reputation of these companies being absolutely shot as they ramp up EV production if they all went out immediately after.
Most modern EV batteries are built with a battery management system. Basically a heating and cooling system and such that you don't see in consumer electronics very much, meant to keep the battery system happy and healthy. The biggest exception to this is the Nissan Leaf, which is based on painfully outdated designs that never really improved from when they first came out almost 15 years ago. Many of those cars have cooked batteries and you would be right to be concerned about it.
You don't think the cost to replace an engine or transmission are an issue?
Do you realize batteries are typically made up of several replaceable "cells". Like by the time you need a new one there will be several affordable third party options that will also increase your range.
Last I checked an engine and transmission rebuild combined cost less than replacing just the batteries on an EV. An ICE might need a rebuild every 20+ years but, we don't even have 20 years of EV data to look at to compare.
No, I don't follow EVs super close. What brands allow this? What third party batteries can I buy and how much do they cost and how do they compare to OEM batteries?
Depends on which ones you buy and when.
It's very easy to look at 10+ year old batteries and extrapolate.
That's what we call a "loaded question". There's all kinds of companies.
How much does it cost to replace an EV battery on average?
There aren't a ton of 10+ year old EVs is my problem. 10 years ago EV were still a pretty niche thing. If you have that kind of info I'd love to take a look though.
I definitely wouldn't call that a loaded question. How do you figure that it is?
It should be better but Tesla has been making it worse.
The Model Y has a structural battery pack. That is the battery is integral to the car, and filled with an almost impossible to remove foam. It is unrepairable and un replaceable. Musk has said when the battery dies, you scrap the entire car and they recycle the lithium from the scrap.
You're conflating Tesla with "EVs". Simply don't buy a Tesla if that's what you want.
Given Tesla's market share, your claim that easily replaced batteries is "typical" isn't accurate. A large percentage isn't replaceable so it's something consumers should consider when choosing a brand.
Tesla is one of dozens of brands. So no.
Yes but we weren't discussing "choosing a brand", we were discussing EVs.
Tesla is 50% of all EV's sold. So, yes.
That's the point! You presented "swap a new battery" as obvious to the the OP when it's not obvious. You have to first pick a brand that allows that. Model Y was first with structural battery but others like Volvo and BMW are coming soon.
Right so then "EVs"= "Tesla"? That's the argument you want to go with?
I didn't present anything as obvious. Just a matter of fact.
...which is easy enough?
[Citation needed]
I specifically DIDN'T say that! You said this:
You didn't qualify that with "only if you buy a model that doesn't have a structural battery."
Volvo and BMW are coming soon.
https://www.sae.org/news/2023/01/bmw-future-batteries---ulrich
https://www.just-auto.com/news/volvo-plans-to-make-battery-pack-part-of-body-structure/?cf-view
GM too:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/understanding-structural-ev-batteries-2021-07-23/
Yes that's exactly my point.
That's how batteries are made today. They're still perfectly serviceable. Tesla's batteries aren't serviceable because they're filled with impenetrable foam.
So your argument has been that you agreed with me the entire time? Ok.
Genuine question, not meant to be an insult:
If most of your trips are within 5 miles, why would you drive? It seems excessive when you could just walk, or cycle, etc.
If it's work related I'd imagine time would play a big part of it. They're not going to walk up to 5 miles to the client and then 5 miles back. And it's not a good option if they have to take along something big and bulky or if the weather is crap.
Well, I'm in the midwest US, so winter can be a bit harsh for walking or biking (though not this year thus far). Most of the time I drive, I'm dragging kids somewhere. It's inconvenient to walk with them.
I have been walking and or biking when it's just me, and I don't need to haul much. I've lost a lot of weight recently, so I can actually bike to work in the summer and not be a sweaty mess when I arrive, so that's a nice change.
We are taking about moving outside the city to have more space, which means not driving will become less possible for almost everything. Today I have groceries, dentist, and doctor within half a mile, and I've walked or biked to those places many times.
Bottom line, most of the time I'm either dragging kids around or I'm in a rush. Driving is very convenient, and is hard to change.
There’s a demographic of people with their own home, at least two cars, and qualify for rebates, where an EV should be an easy decision
I'm in the same boat. I make drives that require refueling even if I leave home with a full tank once every other year (Philly to Indianapolis). Even with a very high range EV, that would probably require multiple recharges each way, so that's not a great use case for EVs, but you know what? That's what rental cars are for. I'll happily get an EV for the 99% of driving that I do within three hours of the Philly metro area and rent an ICE car for the at worst annual trip I take that isn't convenient in an EV.
Of course, this is all theoretical for me because I drive a company car and so don't have much choice in my vehicle, and I probably won't have to buy my own car until that job perk goes away.