this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
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This discussion happened between me and a Zionist just the other day
I wonder how people like that would treat me if they met me on the public street.
What's the timeline of these events?
Timeline? Hamas does a terror attack on Oct 7th and kills 1200 people, Israel responds by killing at least 17000 Palestinians over the next 2 months and that's just the lower end of the estimate.
Exactly. One of these actions caused the other.
Hamas attacking Isreal justifies Isreal attacking Gaza. So the next Hamas attack is then justified because Isreal attacked them? Or does the justification go only one way for you?
That's a very simplistic take for a complex long-term problem that people have been struggling to solve for a very long time.
Let me expand the timeline for you slightly:
1948: Israel expels 700,000 Palestinians from their homeland, with the aid of the British empire.
1948-Oct 6th: Israel continues to exist as an apartheid state.
Oct 7th: Hamas terror attack, killing 1200 people. Israel continues to exist as an apartheid state.
Oct 8th-now: Israel kills 17000+ Palestinians. Israel continues to exist as an apartheid state.
You shouldn't have expected better from @[email protected] and I shouldn't have answered their dumb question either... I should have stopped for a moment and said to myself, "why would anyone ask this question unless to make a hideous point?"
It's got the same undertone as the "What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?" question. Not whatever you're doing, that's for sure!
Both you and @aberrate_[email protected] conveniently left a lot of shitty things the Arabs have done to Israelis during the last 100 years from that summary, most importantly how in 1948 Israel successfully fought a war that all its neighbors started. And then another one in 1967 (although Israel did start that one pre-emptively, with amazing effectiveness). Neither party is a virtuous angel, nobody is in a war.
That's why we should select who we support based on values and the stated end game scenarios of both these states and peoples. Which is why I'm decisively rooting for Israel and by extension also Palestine, against Hamas, because Israel is by a large margin more aligned to liberalism, other western values and modernity.
It absolutely isn't.
Compared to Palestine, way more liberal.
In what way?
78% of israelis support gay marriage or same-sex relationship. Even among those israelis who identify as "religious", that number is 54%. Actually marrying is still a bit complicated in Israel, but people can work around that with a loophole. Meanwhile in Palestine, homosexual relations are outlawed, and being openly queer incites violence.
Israel has elections. Palestine does not.
Israel has freedom of press. Palestine does not.
Israel has legislative processes. Palestine does not.
Israel does fairly well in economic freedom. Palestine does not.
In Israel, protests are legal and are not brutally suppressed. In Palestine, protests and dissidents are brutally suppressed.
So in summary, in many many different ways. They are completely different worlds in terms of liberalism.
It's like somehow you can't get it through your thick head that you can't just rob people of their land and massacre them, otherwise they retaliate.
Framing 1948 as some kind of Israeli victory will go down the dumpster of history in style.
"Israel fights war to successfully ethnically cleanse 700k Palestinians and destroy 500 of their villages, then claims that the Palestinians abandoned their homes, hence making them totally up for grabs. "
Yeah that sounds lovely.
Within the same 2 months.
Don't leave us hanging, what is your answer to their last question?
I'm highly critical of Hamas and have lost many friends over it.