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In the little exerpt included in with the submission, a spokesman makes it clear that they would be worse off in the short run if trump gets elected, but they are thinking long term.
And this comment is implying they are pro trump...and it's the highest voted comment? What's going on here?
"But they are thinking long term"
Yes, I'm sure a second Trump presidency will be just great for democracy and Muslims in the long-term.
I agree, probably wouldn't be. Couple that with all of the other threats to our world that Trump poses and "we're not happy with Biden's Israel/Palenstine issue so we're pulling support" seems incredibly stupid to me.
But the poster implied they were supporting Trump, when they pretty clearly said they do not. Right there in the excerpt from the article. And it's still being upvoted. It's kind of embarrassing, actually, how little people had to read what is right in front of them to not be wrong on this point. . .and it's still a popular opinion getting upvotes.
In a two-party system, refusing support to one party is effectively supporting the other. It's not an insane thing to accuse people of, regardless of what they say.
If you check out the research work done by the political compass, you see it’s actually a one party system wearing a two party outfit.
Oh, lord.
Go check it out. They track democracies from all over the world. It is not partisan. They do not take pundits. They track policies and statements from the officials themselves. If you do not like actual sources, then I don’t know what to tell you. American candidates for the presidency have largely been on the authoritarian right for a decade. Candidates from both parties end up very close to each other on the chart.
Letting Democrats take advantage of your vote and not listen to you over and over again it’s not a good strategy either. They don’t actually stop any of the things they used to fearmonger people with. They just wait so that they can use them as a threat again in the next election cycle. That’s an abusive relationship.
"Yes, Jews recognize that it might not be the best next four years for us, but we just cannot support the Social Democratic Party of Germany for the 1933 election as our concerns are ignored by them and we are taken for granted. We're thinking about the long term strategy here."
Because the best strategy for leaving an abusive relationship is to start dating a serial killer.
A lot of people feel justified in not actually listening to others and judging them from afar as what is happening. They feel justified in doing this for very specific reasons.
We live in a two party system. If you form a coalition to make Biden lose, then you're making Trump win. They're pro-Trump because they're helping Trump. What's going on is a fascist takeover of our country. We aren't giving slack to anyone who enables fascism. The fascists will kill more people not less. This is bad short term thinking and bad long term thinking. The reward for helping fascists is death.
I agree with you it's a dumb move. But dear God, they're literally telling you, almost explicitly, that they don't support the trump (basically supporting noone in the up coming election) and you're still desperately torturing logic and twisting words to deny it. Is it really so hard for you to accept reality? Is it really so hard for you to accept that things are not so black and white?
It is that black and white. We live in a two party system, that's reality. It's not twisting words, it's math. If one candidate doesn't win, the other candidate does. Republicans are overrepresented by the electoral college, not voting helps them win. The support may be inadvertent, but it's still support. They can say they don't support Trump all they want. If they don't vote for Biden, they are supporting Trump.
Using this tortured logic, if one doesn't move to a swing state, even if they support and vote for Biden, their non action inadvertently helps trump get elected, so they actually support Trump.
It's painfully dumb.
Republicans typically represent rural communities with low populations and high surface area. The electoral college votes are allocated to states based on the number of senators and representatives. Both of these are in turn skewed in favor of Republicans as each state gets two senators no matter what and the total number of house seats is capped at 435. Since neither chamber is properly apportioned by population, Republicans are overrepresented in both chambers.
No one knows for sure which states are swing states until it's too late. Remember the blue wall in 2016? Not enough democrat voters showed up and what were supposedly blue states went to Trump.
If a person doesn't vote in an election then they are helping Republicans. If a person doesn't vote for Biden then they are helping Trump.
A person doesn't have to declare their undying loyalty to a candidate in order to support them. Making the other guy lose the election is sufficient. Your argument is splitting hairs.
Trump didn't win any blue states, he won most of the swing states. And we also knew these were the close states, and we know which states are likely to be close again. This idea that "well, we plumb just don't know what will be close states" is pretty much nonsense.
This is a dumb argument used to totally miss the point.
What if that person had voted, they would have voted for Trump? That voter is now hurting Trump's chances, but according to this big-brain logic, that voter is actually helping Trump! lol.
And a person who doesn't vote in a swing state is also helping Trump, despite the fact that they might have even voted for Biden. So, again, according to your logic, you can support and vote for Biden and still be a Trump supporter.
You literally just argued "well, we don't know for sure which are going to be swing states!" in an attempt to take down my point, and you're accusing me of splitting hairs by pointing out that not supporting Biden does not mean you support Trump. Holy shit, this is hilarious. Do you even think about what you write down?
We didn't know they were swing states at the time. Some people suspected, but most people were surprised when the blue wall fell. It's not missing the point. If enough Democratic voters don't vote in any state, Republicans win, because Republicans win with low voter turn out. Apathy is how fascism wins.
Also, these people are planning on not voting in states that they believe are swing states, so your argument's tangent misses the point.
Again.
Muslim Americans have already been targeted as scapegoats with Trump's travel ban which targeted Middle Eastern countries. So they probably weren't planning on voting Trump. Regardless, if a hard core Trump supporter doesn't vote then that is a detriment to Trump. But hard core Trump voters aren't typical voters. While this is a generalization, people living in cities tend to vote blue and the majority of people live in or near cities. So if more people voted, Democrats should do better in elections.
We never know the results of elections before hand, so we don't know which states will be swing states in future elections. We know which states were swings states before, but voter turn out has been the greatest deciding factor in the last two presidential elections. So we need to call out the people who are threatening not to vote in historic swing states. But we also need to call out voters in historic non-swing states because those states could become swing states in the next election.
We live in a two party system. If Biden loses then Trump wins. By not supporting Biden, they are supporting Trump.
I am not relevant to the topic of discussion.
Of course we know they were swing states. It was the almost the same set of states in 2016 that were going to be close that they were from the election before that, and 2020 was similar too. We have pretty decent polling that shows which states are harder to call than others.
I don't know what the "blue wall" is, but people were surprised that Clinton lost. This has absolutely no bearing on the fact that there were 11 battleground states in 2016, Trump won 5 of them. He didn't win any democratic strong-holds, as you seem to be claiming. They were all states that could have reasonably gone either way, and they went Trump's way.
So using your own logic, that their inaction of not-supporting Biden makes them Trump supporters, if you live in a non-swing state and don't move to a swing state, your inaction is helping Trump win thus you are a Trump supporter. It's really that simple. Accept this use of your logic or accept that the logic is broken. Remember, two party system, so if you don't do what you can to get Biden elected, then you are actually supporting Trump.
Swing state doesn't mean "it's going to go from one party to another" it means "the outcome is reasonably uncertain." Basically, polling is close enough that a lot more votes need to come in before someone can reasonably call the election a win for one candidate or another. Like for CA, not hard to call it's going to go blue within the first few hours of voting. PA, however, is really hard to tell before counting almost all of the votes. If you remember 2020, Trump was ahead until they counted all the votes and Biden ended up winning
You know who else won't vote in swing states? People who don't live there. Again, your logic, if you don't move to a swing state, you are helping Trump.
But they are also not supporting Trump so using this busted-ass logic, they are also Biden supporters. It's mind-boggling it's still being argued.
I didn't say you were, I just pointed out how little critical thought seemed to be going into the argument that I was "splitting hairs" when, in reality, it is you splitting hairs.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150322214945/http://rare.us/story/democrats-say-a-2016-electoral-college-blue-wall-means-republicans-cant-win-wrong/
As I said, some people suspected the blue wall theory was wrong, but the Democratic party pushed the idea that these states were solid blue strong holds which turned out to be wrong. The point is a person could reasonably believe their state is not a swing state before an election, so they assume their vote doesn't matter, and then be in for a rude awakening after the election. Hindsight is 20/20.
Mathematically speaking that is the case, since we live in two party system. If a group of people makes Biden lose with low voter turnout they are supporting Trump, since one of the two candidates has to win.
Again this is not relevant as the group of people we are discussing are planning on not voting, in historic swing states. I will point out there is no source that can verify with 100% certainty which of the 50 states with be swing states in 2024. There are of course some good guesses backed up with statistics, but statistics are not guarantees. If enough people decide to not vote, any state is more likely to swing Republican as the system disproportionality benefits low population areas that tend to go Republican.
Yes. For example, the results in Florida used to be considered reasonably uncertain, with either party having a chance to win, but now they are a solid red state that consistently votes Republican. Our focus is in on swing states that might turn red for the presidential race because of low voter turn out in 2024.
This tangent isn't helping your argument. Again, we don't know for certain which states will be swing states in the next election. But regardless of that it isn't relevant because these people are threatening to not vote, in historic swing states.
It is not the case that a typical voter in this country is completely random. While it is a generalization, the Democrats represent people in and around high population cities, where as Republicans represent low populations in rural areas. More people in America are represented by the Democratic party. A minority of people are hard core Trump supporters. If enough people voted, Democrats would dominate in elections across the country. But again, this tangent isn't relevant. We are talking about a specific group of people in historic swing states, that are threatening not to vote.
This sentence from your argument references me and not my argument. My thoughts have no bearing on this conversation. But since you asked, my argument is not particularly complicated as it relies on the fact we live in a two party system where Republicans win with low voter turn out. People threatening to not vote for Biden are supporting Trump. As I wrote before, it is your argument splitting hairs over the word support.
Only one of the states listed in there among the Democrats list of blue wall states went to trump, which is MI, but it was recognized as a battleground early in the election. Whether democrats thought this was a solid state is besides the point, polling showed that it was definitely one that could reasonably go either wau. Your own link kind of supports my point.
But they also don't support trump. They don't support either. So in this crazy math land, they actually support both candidates. Trying to make it a dichotomy, because our system tends towards two parties, doesn't reflect reality.
Absolutely relevant because you are claiming that non action that helps trump win is support from trump, even with pretty explicit lack of support for trump. Repeating that "we don't know for sure" it will help him win, thus it doesn't count, is a double-edge sword for you because these people pulling their support for Biden might lead to other people to support him, thus it helps him. So we can't know for certain this will hurt him, thus dismantling your own point too.
If you want to go on what we can reasonably believe to be true, then my point holds as well. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The fact that swing states are not static is irrelevant. We have a good idea what are going to be battleground states and which will not be in the upcoming election. People have been discussing Florida's shift to the right for the past 2 decades. It's not like it was a surprise it went to trump the last two elections.
Yes because they, explicitly, support neither candidate. Yet this is support for one candidate to you, because we live in a two party system.
No one thinks your argument is complicated, it's just based on ridiculously thoughtless logic that is often, if not always, self contradictory. To accuse me of splitting hairs is the same "making it about me" that you are whining about here.
No, there were people that were lead to believe that these states were not swing states when they were in fact swing states. Thus countering your argument's point that a person can be absolutely certain if their state is a swing state.
It does reflect reality. We live in a two party system. An argument that relies on denying this fact is not compelling.
We know for sure that low voter turn out helps Republicans and thus Trump. People not voting for Biden reduces the number of votes he will get. There is no measurable effect that demonstrates more people will vote for a candidate if other people say they won't vote for them. This is baseless speculation.
Watch me.
This is the core part of what we are discussing. These voters are planning on not voting, in historic swing states. This will drive those states further to the right in the presidential election.
It's math. If Trump gets more votes, because Biden got fewer votes, Trump wins. The people who withhold their votes from Biden will have supported Trump. Saying they don't support Trump while actively helping him win doesn't hold any water.
The reason my argument isn't complicated is because it relies on facts and logic. Your arguments rests on dogging around the word support to conflate supporting Trump in the election with being a MAGA Trump supporter. I have been addressing your argument. These statements about my thoughts are directed at me. edit: typo
No we don't know that for sure. We know it tends to be that way, but it's not 100% certain. You just need it to be 100% certain because your point totally falls apart if it isn't true. So, as you've proven throughout this debate, your logic only applies when it helps your point, but you recognize the ridiculousness of it when it contradicts your point.
We know as much as we can know anything, when it comes to elections, in regards to low voter turn benefiting Republicans. In 2016 Hillary Clinton lost because of low voter turnout in key swings states. In 2020 Biden won because of high voter turnout in key swing states. These people are planning on using that information to ensure low voter turnout in key, historic swings states in the 2024 election so Biden loses. Your argument ignores the premise of what we are discussing and the facts that are generally accepted to be true and thus is not compelling. My point is that by choosing to make Biden lose in a two party system, where we know low voter turn favors Republicans, they are supporting Trump. No amount of word play, off topic tangents, or ad hominem attacks, that your argument uses, will change that.
You have to be joking. This has to be a clever troll. By no stretch of the imagination am I ignoring the premise. My whole argument is using your logic in another case to demonstrate how bunk it is. Every attempt you make to dismiss this also dismisses your own argument. How you can call this "ignoring" it makes no sense. Additionally, I've ignored no facts. You just think your opinion is a fact, which it isn't. You know what is among "the facts that are generally accepted"? That there are known swing states. You're seeing your own faults in me, but I assure you they are yours and yours alone.
This post is a perfect example of what your argument includes. Your argument tries to apply my argument's logic to a more general circumstance to demonstrate its incorrectness. I explain in my argument that my logic is correct more generally, I give examples, and explain that the more general cases are irrelevant when discussing the specific case. Then your argument attempts to use word play to make it seem my argument's explanation for the more general case contradicts the more specific case when it does not.
You assert in your argument that my argument's logic, in the general case, contradicts the logic for the specific case we are discussing. Your argument does this in order to make it appear it is building a case, but no where did your argument actually do so. All the while your argument never addresses the actual topic of discussion and simply dismisses the know facts. Your argument boils down to an attempt to pretend as if your argument demonstrated a flaw in my argument's logic without actually having done so. Your argument is an exercise in theater, because your argument lacks anything of substance to refute my central point.
In this new post your argument opens with a series of ad hominem statements. Your argument then contains an explanation for what it is unsuccessfully trying to do. Another ad hominem statement is thrown into the mix. Then your argument misrepresents what my argument has stated in order to mislead.
We can know which states have historically been swing states, and I refer to such states as historic swing states. I make this distinction because a person can not know with absolute certainly if their historic non-swing state could become a swing state in the next election. That is to say more generally, given enough low voter turnout, any state will flip Republican because Republicans benefit from low voter turnout. This is especially true in historic swing states where we have every reason to believe the election will already be close. Thus the people threatening to make Biden lose by utilizing their knowledge of our voting system, to not vote in historic swing states, are supporting Trump.
Your argument has failed to refute my point in the more general case. My argument's logic is consistent across the more specific and general cases, despite your argument's assumption to the contrary. Since there is no contradiction, your argument simply pretends that there is, which isn't particularly convincing. And the general case is not relevant to our discussion, because we are specifically referring to a group of people who are planning not to vote in historic swing states. Your argument has yet to touch on the specific case we are discussing, instead focusing solely on the unrelated general case. edit: typo
Again, this is what you are doing. You are the one trying to deny that we have strong confidence in what the swing states are, dismissing the application of your logic there because "we can't be 100% certain" while at the same time arguing that because more people voting tends to help democrats, that is somehow 100% fact that them not voting is going to help Republicans. You hate your own logic.
Yes, and again, we "can not know with absolute certainly" that low turn out will help the republicans. It just tends to be that way. Hell, we "can not know with absolute certainly" that these people not voting will even lead to low voter turnout. It might even increase turn out.
And thus the people not moving to historic swing states to cast their vote there, are supporting Trump. It's your logic, my man, not mine. Why the desire to reject your own point is beyond me.
Incorrect. In fact, it's the exact opposite of reality. You knowing something "for certain" is only a requirement when it helps your point, when it contradicts your position, it is ignored. This is not consistent. Inadvertently likely helping Trump win via inaction is support for Trump when it supports your point, but not when it contradicts your position. This is not consistent. You claim that in a two party system, if you don't support one candidate, you are supporting the other. When that means they are supporting Trump when they aren't supporting Biden, it's used. When it means they are supporting Biden because they don't support Trump. . .well that doesn't count. This is not consistent.
I'm the only one consistently applying your logic. You just hate it because your ego is too big to admit you're just plain wrong.
High voter turnout helps Democrats. We only know which states have been swing states in the past. Which states will be swing states in the future is conjectured with statistics which by definition is not absolute certainty.
We know that low voter turn out benefits Republicans because of how our voting system works and the demographics Republicans appeal to. Suggesting the opposite is baseless speculation.
People moving states doesn't change the number of votes overall, just the demographics and vote count in each state. This would do nothing to help either candidate overall and isn't relevant to the discussion. The people we are discussing already live in historic swing states.
Their statement that they don't support Trump, when they are actively planning to help him win an election, is meaningless. My argument's point is that they are supporting Trump with their actions. Actions speak louder than words.
Your argument is what is known as a Straw Man Fallacy.
https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/
Ignoring the fact that this is absolutely not certain. It just tends to be that way. If something is uncertain, it doesn't count. . .well, of course, only when it suits your purpose, of course. lol
Ignoring the fact that we also know that swing states exist and regularly, very confidently, can declare which are going to be close. Suggesting the opposite is baseless speculation.
True. But our system is electoral based, and so switching from a "certain" state to a "swing" state makes your vote more meaningful. So by not moving to a swing state to support Biden, you are actually supporting Trump.
I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about all the people who live in non-swing states who stay there. By your logic, their inaction to support Biden is actually support for Trump. lol. How is this not clear by now? You're so busy chasing your own tail trying to be right that you've got yourself completely turned around.
No, they are not actively doing this. They are running an anti-Biden campaign while also being anti-Trump. They don't support either. That's the point. They are likely just going to sit the vote out because they don't support either candidate. You can paint this as stupid and something that is likely to hurt them, and I would absolutely agree, but their point is that they are playing a long game and by pulling support from Biden, because he is doing stuff they think is bad for Muslims, they will get more support from Democrats in the future. They are just okay with Biden losing because they think even that would be better in the long wrong.
Incorrect, it's not the straw-man fallacy because I'm not saying you are making this argument, I'm applying your logic to another situation that you are sure to disagree with, to demonstrate how ridiculous your logic is. It's called reductio ad absurdum and it's a well established method of debating. If we want to pull out the debate books, what you are doing is called false dilemma. It's like you realize the faults of your own argument and you are simply alerting me to them. I appreciate it.
Then your argument is not addressing my central point and is a Straw Man Fallacy. Once your arguments address my central point instead of other positions, they will improve considerably.
Unfortunately for your argument, I do agree with my argument's logic in the other circumstances so that didn't work either.
Our two party system is a zero-sum game. One candidate must win and the other must lose. Thus it is impossible for anyone to be neutral in such a system. By not voting for Biden in historic swing states, these people are helping Trump to win. They know this to be true, which is why they are organizing a movement around this idea. They think punishing the Democratic party in this way will benefit them in the long run because it will force Democrats to be more progressive. This reasoning is flawed, because if elected, Trump will dismantle our democracy and there will not be future elections.
Ignoring the context in which that statement was made to misrepresent it, attacking that, and then accusing me of straw-manning. Hilarious.
lol. It's literally my argument that you only accept your logic when it supports your point. You just unintentionally admitted I am right.
Incorrect. This is the false dichotomy. You need it to be true or your whole point falls apart, but as we see here there are at least 3 options: support Trump, Support Biden, support neither.
You're confusing "this is a bad idea that is going to hurt you" with "supporting Trump." These are not the same things. I agree that they are doing a dumb thing, but they also are not "supporting Trump."
I need to know, are you actually this dumb or are you just trolling? Your writing makes it sound like you aren't a complete idiot, but your the content of your arguments reveal a complete lack of critical thought.
The context was another straw man.
Perhaps reread my sentence. I fully believe my argument's logic is consistent across all circumstances you have raised in your argument. I believe this because that is the case.
Not voting for either candidate benefits the Republicans. The people we are discussing are basing their movement around this idea.
These concepts are not mutually exclusive. They have been doing both of those things.
I am not relevant to the topic of discussion. But since you asked, I think my commitment to addressing arguments is an indication of my desire to have good faith discussions. That being said the internet is an imperfect mechanism for conveying intentions. So believe what you want about me.
"We don't have two options. We have many options," Jaylani Hussein, director of Minnesota's Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) chapter, said at a press conference in Dearborn, Michigan, when asked about Biden alternatives. "We're not supporting (former President Donald) Trump," he said, adding that the Muslim community would decide how to interview other candidates.
Literally and explicitly straight from the horse's mouth. If you're committed to addressing the arguments in good faith, you'll admit that you are wrong now. Well, of course, unless you're a troll or a complete idiot. And, no, that's actually not a false dichotomy.*
*actually it probably is, there are probably a number of other embarrassing reasons you might try to deny it. And based on how much you've simply ignored reality in this debate during while "arguing" in "good faith" I'm sure you'll try. lol
This is the kind of meaningless statement I've been talking about in my argument. They are planning on not voting for Biden in historic swing states so that he loses and Trump wins. Them saying "We're not supporting Trump" doesn't mean anything if they help Trump win an election. They are empty words meant to save face. Another way to put it is this person is lying.
The reality of that is so obvious, given what we know about our election system and the two parties we have to choose from, that simply stating the opposite isn't a compelling argument. Rather than trying to articulate why the opposite is true, your argument simply relies on ad hominem statements. But this topic has nothing to do with me and thus your argument isn't persuasive.
Also, a good faith discussion doesn't mean one of the people arguing has to admit that they're wrong. I believe another person can see my arguments and not be convinced by them.
You're arguing that they are supporting Trump. They are literally and explicitly saying they don't support Trump. Yet pointing this out is "meaningless." Holy shit the lengths people will go to avoid admitting that they are wrong will never cease to amaze me.
So, maybe they are lying about not supporting Biden. We "can't know for sure" which way they are lying. So, as usual, your point is self-defeating and your flailing contradicts something you said earlier.
Let me guess: "I can claim they are lying when it suits my point. . .but when you can claim they are lying in the same exact way, that doesn't count!"
But "they're lying!" is classic. I'm cracking up over here.
I literally just linked you an article with them saying something explicitly that proves you wrong. Trying to pretend that my arguments "rely" on the ad hominem is just a desperate attempt to protect your own ego.
If them telling you, outright, that they don't support Trump isn't going to persuade you that they don't support Trump, you're all but outright admitting that nothing will persuade you away from your delusion. At this point, I'm no longer trying to persuade you, it's just entertaining watching you lash out and flail around. I've never seen such a fragile, yet proud ego. . .so unwilling to admit they are wrong and at the same time stick it out. Most people would have either just admitted that they were wrong by this point, or slink off. You, however, wow. Impressive. To stick around while getting so repeatedly flogged. Amazing.
Agreed.
If this thread is any indication of how you typically argue, that probably happens a lot. lol
The fact that the statement is meaningless can be deduced from the fact we live in a two party system. Since one candidate must win and the other must lose the situation is a zero-sum game. We also know that Trump, as the presumed Republican candidate, will benefit from low voter turnout as all Republican candidates generally do. Not to mention these peoples' movement resets on the idea they can influence the election simply by not voting for Biden in order to punish the Democratic party. In short, we know the statement "We're not supporting Trump" is false, because all the available facts contradict it. All their statement proves is that they don't want to admit they are supporting Trump in the election.
I read the posted article and saw their claim that they don't support Trump. I did not take their word at face value because I saw the contradiction in their statement.
Your argument is good at making it seem like it won the debate and its aggressive nature makes it seem like it is constantly on the attack. But ultimately a lot of effort is wasted on posturing without delivering any substance with it. With half as much effort put at refuting my argument's central point, your arguments would be much more compelling.
Except, of course, the fact that you can actually support pretty much anyone you want for POTUS and are not restricted to the nominees of two major parties, and the fact that they have openly said that they don't support Trump. I mean, those are only the most damning facts for your argument. There are plenty of others that we have hashed over that also demolish your self-contradictory position.
Of course not because it would force you to admit that you are wrong, and you're not arguing in good faith, but desperately trying to pretend that you are not not wrong. Just like a child.
But, of course, by accusing them of lying, this is also an ad hominem. Something you were hilariously and hypocritically up in arms about me doing just a little while ago. I'm shocked it took me this long to realize that that accusation was just a warning that you were going to do it at some point.
Your central point is absolutely demolished by the fact that they explicitly said they don't support Trump. Your central point relies 100% on claiming they are lying when you have zero evidence to support this accusation. All I've done throughout this debate is show how the same absurd logic you've used to justify your point can be used to justify claiming tons of people who are actually going to vote for Biden are actually Trump supporters. I can only presume this is because it would catch you in the net too, and you don't want to have to admit you are a Trump supporter. You are about as intelligent as one, so you would be among your kind.
It is well understood no third party candidates or independent candidates have any chance at winning the presidential election. Choosing a candidate who has no chance of winning is the same as not voting for the purpose of counting votes. The only real options are Republicans or Democrats for presidential elections.
This is not an ad hominem because I am pointing out the logical contradiction in their statement. Rather than directing my arguments at them, I am refuting their central point in their statement.
edit: Adding this to respond to your edit.
Again, here is my refutation of their central point:
If you want to refute my central point in your argument, then direct your argument at this paragraph.
Incorrect. It's unlikely, but "we can't know that for sure." Republicans were, at one point, "the third party." You can't keep going back to "what we likely know is true" because we've already established that "what is likely true" only matters when it helps your point, and ignored when it hurts it.
I tend to agree here. Except when it comes to who you support for POTUS. If you're voting for a candidate, literally the thing that most shows your support for a candidate, you can't say they don't support the candidate they are literally voting for. Well, you can say it, but we've already established that you will say bat-shit crazy things in a desperate attempt to not be wrong.
No, it's absolutely an ad hominem. Like the most pure form of it. You are questioning their motives instead of what they are literally saying. It's a textbook case of it. Do you mind if I point some students to this in the future as a perfect example of the ad hominem?
Your central point is that they are supporting Trump. That paragraph of desperate nonsense that kind of loosely resembles logic is your argument for that point. But make no mistake about it, your central point is that they are Trump supporters. Something they explicitly have said is untrue, and the only refutation you have against what they have expressly said is an unsupported accusation that they are lying, which is an ad hominem. You're argument falls apart because it relies on an unsupported attack on their character for it to be true, and you pointed out early how bad arguments that rely on ad hominems are. Of course, you were wrong at the time that my argument hinged on an ad hominem, I was just insulting someone who kind of deserves it, but you were right that if your argument relies on it, like yours does, that it's pretty clear how "unconvincing" your argument is.
Neither a third party candidate nor an independent candidate has ever won the presidential election in this country. That's not a statistical anomaly. We live in a two party system.
For the purposes of counting votes, voting third party or independent for a presidential election is the same as not voting.
No, I refuted their central point in that statement by establishing the logical contradiction there in. I think the most obvious reason for them to say a meaningless statement like that is to save face. This supposition about their motive for doing such a thing is not the refutation of their central point.
This is at least in the right ball park. Again, I think they are pro-trump in the sense that they are supporting him in the presidential election. I think it's a reasonable assumption that most of these people voted Biden in 2020 and do not identify as MAGA hat wearing Republicans.
Anyway, I think you have the idea now. Refuting an argument's central point makes for arguments that are far more persuading.
The republican party didn't even form until 1845. For a while it was the Whigs and the Democrats. We've had at least 5 different parties win the POTUS. I'm not saying this is astonishing, but the claim that a third party has never won is laughably wrong. I even explicitly noted it to you and you weren't smart enough to go look it up on your own.
Incorrect. The votes still count. When it comes to the electoral system, it's effectively the same on the outcome.
However, when it comes to showing who you support, clearly who you actually support (especially if we are talking by giving them your vote) it's not even remotely the same.
And this is the central part of what we are arguing here - something you keep insisting we stick to. .. of course only when it suits your point, going off on ridiculous logical tangents is "persusive" when it helps you make your point. lol - so trying to argue that you don't actually support the person you are voting for, but some other person, is just plain bat-shit crazy reality denialism.
No, you refuted nothing. You just called them liars with zero evidence. Your accusation is based solely on the fact that it contradicts the conclusion you've already come to. You don't care about reality, you care about trying to convince people you are right.
But are you just going to drop the fact that you used the ad hominem to refute their claim?
Actually, you know what? You're lying right now and you actually agree with me, because no one would be stupid enough to hold your position. That was easy. lol I like this style of debate.
Political parties have come and gone. But there were only two main parties at any given time. Characterizing new parties as third parties when they only had one political party as opposition is disingenuous.
The votes count, but since they are towards a candidate with no chance of winning, it is the same as not voting for the purpose of counting votes for the main two political parties, Republicans and Democrats.
In a two party system, support for a third party is measured in the votes it detracts from the candidates from the two main parties. For example, the Green Party took votes from Al Gore in Florida and cost him the 2000 presidential election.
I have already copy and pasted my argument once. Pretending my argument doesn't exist won't help your argument.
I pointed out that their meaningless statement was false and therefore that they were lying, for the sake of clarity. Your argument has unsuccessfully attempted to misrepresent this clarifying statement as my argument. Not because it was my argument, but because my argument saying they were lying sounds like it was making an ad hominem statement as the basis of my argument when it was not.
My argument's position is that they are supporting Trump, by not voting for Biden. Their statement that they are not supporting Trump, is false. Therefore it is a lie. But the fact that they are lying is simply the conclusion I reached by following my arguments logic. It is not how I arrived at that conclusion.
I think you have convinced yourself with your arguments. But the goal of debating someone is to convince others. I know my arguments. I know your argument is misrepresenting them. Your argument is not going to fool me. I can see your arguments misrepresentation clearly and write down exactly what it's doing. Anyone else can do the same. If you want to convince people, argue against what was said and not what you've decided was said. Or keep doing what you're doing, but it won't convince anyone.
Oh yes because religious people are known for making smart decisions....
Religious people making bad decisions doesn't preclude people here from not being bright enough to read an excerpt that is right in front of them so they won't be terribly wrong on what they think is a ridiculous position.
Their idiot's facade of justification doesn't stop it from being a ridiculous position.